about all these post bout heaven , hell and afterlife

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Jul 24, 2002
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#21
Trauma said:
Dude, I practice my own personal religion, I don't make nobody else do it, and I love it. I love everything about it, and I don't feel it's a hindrance, I think it makes my life, NOW, better... not my life after I die.

How can you knock that? If we're enjoying it, how are we 'being deceived"? If it's making me a better person, how is it wrong? I never understood that.
I guess you missed my whole point.
It's my fault for postin too much info at the same time.

I guess you will never understand until you witness it yourself, that's the nature of Atheism.

But regardless of that, you'll understand what I'm saying if you have an open mind.

Good, your beliefs work for you.
Good for you.
But how are you going to convince someone else to live life appropriately with Atheism?
Atheism has nothing to offer.
You see, you don't have to necessarily believe that religion is real.
Let's say that it is fake, the important point is that it works.
It gives people the sense of reward for being good.
It gives you comfort and hope.
Even if it's fake.
We as a civilization need to believe that there is a higher power above us in order to survive.
Look, the world is chaotic as it is already even though we have a lot of religious folks.
And it will get even worse with out religion.

You see religion is a big brother for us all.
It gives us a "good" conscious.
The good conscious embeds in our lives.
A true religious person will do nobody any harm because we are taught to help others.
It teaches us not to be selfish and to look out for the entire world.
Especailly in Christianity, we are taught that if we want to be accepted by God we need to be more like him.
Perfect....
True, no one can be perfect but that is our measuring stick and we are taught to be as perfect as can be.

Atheism makes an un even measuring stick.
And it encourages people to be free and do what they like as long as they don't hurt anyone.
That's too much freedom and just like children you need to be limited to what you do.
You might have good intentions but the next man won't.
There will be much more negatives then possitives under Atheism.

Our cvilization has gotten to a dead end. And it's because of people's lack of faith in God.
It's like we need a new religion that everyone can relate to because the religions of old can longer be related to people now days....

And that's the bottom line as to why we need religion....
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#22
n9newunsixx5150 said:
There will never be proof against God. If we find something out tomorrow that goes against our original idea of our existence or the nature of God we would then merely incorporate it into our reality. The idea of God will always be here. Even if government tries to control our beliefs one day, there will be rebels. The idea of God is the philosophical idea of an absolute. There is an absolute. So the idea is correct! When we attribute human characteristics and emotions is when we are attempting to identify God to ourselves. Its not wrong to do this but we need to see the whole of the truth rather than the part in order to not be half-wise in a relative perspective. Because to put human traits upon God is seeing "Him" in a relative perspective. Bottom line is, you can't argue with the idea of the absolute. You may not know what exactly it is.....But know one really does. That doesn't mean there isn't one..............
Don't twist the meaning of God around just to help your cause.
God means the Ultimate reality.
And nothing else.
From the looks of it, you're not a true Atheist.
And I see this a lot with most Atheists so you're not alone.
You're leaving the window open to other possibilties and I praise you for that.

So God is not an absolute.
He is an entity, because who ever engineered life had to have a conscious. Look around, everything has the creator's engineering touch. You cannot construct a building and then automatically assume that it just came to be, just because you weren't around to see the building crew build it.
What I'm trying to say is that nothing comes out of nothing.
How can something be created if there was no creator?

I love the way how Ralph Estling from the Skeptical Inquirer put it:

"The problem emerges in science when scientists leave the realm of science and enter that of philosophy and metaphysics, too often grandiose names for mere personal opinion, untrammeled by empirical evidence or logical analysis, and wearing the mask of deep wisdom. And so they conjure us an entire Cosmos, or myriads of cosmoses, suddenly, inexplicably, causelessly leaping into being out of—out of Nothing Whatsoever, for no reason at all, and thereafter expanding faster than light into more Nothing Whatsoever.... They then intone equations and other ritual mathematical formulae and look upon it and pronounce it good. I do not think that what these cosmologists, these quantum theorists, these universe-makers, are doing is science. I can’t help feeling that universes are notoriously disinclined to spring into being, ready-made, out of nothing"
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#23
2-0-Sixx said:
@miggidy

lets hear it then! You got nothing! Do you think the points you have brought up havent already been talked about millions of times in the past and have been torn to threads in debates? Give us something to talk about.
I'm puzzled as to how you think you'll tear what I say to shreads????
Well let me tear you a new one in that case....


You ask why do we need religion to survive?
Peep my reply to Trauma.
In a nutshell, religion gives us guilt.
And guilt is a good thing.
With out guilt there would be no repentence.
And with out repetence, we will always be the same.
Look at what happenned to Atheist Russia? Their society and livelyhood took a plummet.
Sort of like what we're going through here in the US.
We are taught to be free, "fuck a dog if it's fine with you. It's your choice".
"Murder your unborn, it's your body".
People wil take advantage of you if you give them too much freedom. Shit, you give someone a dollar, and next they want your whole fucking wallet.
I don't mean to say to keep you in check, but as human beings we need limits. Because we have a violent nature.
And we need to keep that nature in check.
Our young ones have the mentality that they have because of the Atheist environment they're being brought up on.
"It's ok as long as it's ok to you" attitude is bullshit.
Because of this, my homeboys are pot heads, there's a neighborhood tramp every 2 houses, white boys are killing their parents, etc....
Nobody has a good conscious when you tell them that they'll get away with what ever they do.
Brain wash a muthafucka into thinking that what ever he does, god is watching and that if he does wrong, God will torch him.
I guarantee you that bird will fly straight!
But go ahead and tell him that God is just another fairy tail and that he is free to do what ever he chooses, don't be surprised when he blows your head off for grounding him....


"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

That is pure 100% grade A, bullshit!
Religion is what gives a heartless body a heart in the first place.
We are cold blooded beings with out it.
We are animals with out it.
With out religion, we rely on our animalistic instincts.
The instinct of survival.
Me first!
And only me!
Religion is a philosophy that raises the conscious and awareness.
Atheism turns us into zombies!
Ask the oppressed people of the old USSR if you don't believe......


"This attitude towards an atheist society is garbage. Lets compare an animal with 99% same DNA as humans. Gorillas. Study a group of gorillas and you will see no killings and chaotic lifestyles. They live together in peace. How can they live so peacefully without the belief in god?"

This goes to show how little you know about zoology!
Animal behavior in general....
Shit, don't you have any pets at the least?
You sit down and look at animal behavior yourself, you'll see that animal behavior is completely different than ours.
With an animal, it's all about survival!
And it is the same for humans that lack religion.
Why do you think we have law enforcement?
BECAUSE WE HAVE A VIOLENT NATURE!


"Tell that to Stephen Hawkins"

Half of Atheist people are simply rebelling against god and religious society.
Talking to people like you with a rebellious nature, is like talking to a wall. What ever one says, it doesn't penetrate the rock above your shoulders.
Even if God confronted Stephen H., he 'd be in denial and call it a dream....


"One of the most false statements ever used. Einstein never said he believed or did not believe in god. Look it up."

Now that's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard!
Read this:
"God is cunning but He is not malicious."
"God is subtle but he is not bloody-minded."
"God is slick, but he ain't mean."
And he occassionaly said, "God does not play dice."
And in refference to what we've been debating about,
"I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Do your homework kid!

----Continued----
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#24
"Perfect huh? You obviously have no idea what your talking about."

Wrong, you have no idea of what I'm talking about. Either that or you're simply rebelling with out a cause.
Even athiest scientists agree that our solar system and planet are perfect. Goes to show what your intentions are.
We wouldn't have made it this far if it weren't for a perfect world.
One little change, and we're doomed.
Educate yourself son....

Peep these article snipitz:
---Scientific American, August, 1998---
“There is a huge amount of data supporting the existence of God.”...“The question is how to evaluate it.”...In recent decades, physicists have noticed that many of the fundamental constants of nature -- from the energy levels in the carbon atom to the rate at which the universe is expanding to the four perceptible dimensions of space-time -- are just right for life. Tweak any of them more than a tad, and life as we know it could not exist...“How is it that human’s cognitive abilities greatly exceed the demands imposed by evolutionary pressures, so that we can perceive the quantum nature of the universe and map its cosmic features?”...One possible explanation...is that the universe was designed."

---Time magazine, Dec. 28, 1992---
“One intriguing observation that has bubbled up from physics is that the universe seems calibrated for life’s existence. If the force of gravity were pushed upward a bit, stars would burn out faster, leaving little time for life to evolve on the planets circling them. If the relative masses of protons and neutrons were changed by a hair, stars might never be born, since the hydrogen they eat wouldn’t exist. If, at the Big Bang, some basic numbers -- the “initial conditions” -- had been jiggled, matter and energy would never have coagulated into galaxies, stars, planets or any other platforms stable enough for life as we know it. And so on.”


"Please, dont speak on something you know nothing of. If you want to lean more, read "The selfish gene" by Stephen Hawkings. How did DNA become? Did god just say, "Let there be DNA!" "

Ha ha ha ha..... Do you have a better answer?
DNA is a blue print whether you like it or not.
Sorry to bust your bubble!


"Oh no! A bone crusher! You got me there! Whatever, Darwin wasnt the first or the last to research evolution. The statement you made proves nothing. If you believe in a "Designer" then why is it so hard for you to believe in evolution?"

Darwin was the first to publish his findings of evolution.
All which is based in bad foundation to begin with.
Why don't I believe in evolution? For the same reason why I don't believe in the Big Bang theory.
The hubble telescope shattered that idea.
And here let me shatter that fantasy idea you call evolution:

---Human Evolution is contradictory----
"The current theory of human evolution states that modern humans evolved from more primitive bipedal hominids. The first bipedal hominid genus that is supposedly the ancestor of modern humans is Australopithecus, which appeared in the fossil record from about 4.4 to 1 million years ago throughout eastern Africa. Australopithecus comprised a diverse group of small-brained bipedal species that were confined to the savannas of Africa. This genus was supposed to have evolved into the genus Homo, which has been defined as bipedal primates with a brain capacity over 700 cc, having appeared in the fossil record by about 2 million years ago as Homo habilis in eastern Africa. According to theory, Homo habilis evolved into Homo erectus, which had a brain capacity just over 1000 cc, appearing in the fossil record from about 1.5 million to 300 thousand years ago. Homo neandertalensis lived between 400 and 28 thousand years ago. Archaic Homo sapiens appeared 400 - 150 thousand years ago, and modern Homo sapiens from less than 100 thousand years ago. Contrary to the claims of many creationists, there is ample evidence for the existence of human-like species of bipedal primates. The dates and ages of these fossils are not widely disputed in scientific circles. The reality of the fossil record and the reliability of the dates of these fossils is actually instrumental in disproving the descent of man theory. If the fossil record were not as complete as it now is, the standard evolutionist argument would apply, "we just haven't found the missing link ancestor of modern humans yet."

---Lack of genetic diversity among modern humans---
"lack of genetic diversity among modern humans
As evolutionists studied humans and species of apes in the 1970's and 1980's, some rather surprising information was being discovered that distinguished us from apes and other primates. The maximum Fst value (a measure of variation between population groups) between human races is 0.08 (1, 2). However, among populations of chimps, orangutans, and other primate species, Fst values are commonly more than 0.20. An examination of 62 common protein coding genetic loci, indicates a substitution rate of 0.011/locus (Caucasoids versus Mongoloids), to a maximum of 0.029 (Mongoloids versus Negroids). However, in nearly all other animal species studied, including apes, usually exceed 0.05 (2). In humans, heterozygosity (the proportion of alleles that are polymorphic, in this case within the species) is 1.8% , whereas in apes it ranges from 2.5 in the Orangutan to 3.9 in the Chimpanzee (3). An analysis of the genetics of populations of apes reveals that different population groups possess fixed novel mutations that characterize each population. In contrast, there are no novel mutations or genetic alleles that specifically characterize any one human race from another. More recent studies have confirmed the early work, likewise showing that human genetic diversity is far less than what one would predict from Darwinian theory. Dr. Maryellen Ruvolo (Harvard University) has noted, "It's a mystery none of us can explain." (4). Examinations of the genetic sequences of diverse modern human populations reveals minor, if any differences (5). All of this evidence suggested a recent origin for modern humans."

****Dustin my hands****

Peace,
Miggidy
 
Nov 17, 2002
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#26
@miggidy


You have got me completely wrong. I am not an atheist. I never said I am. I didn't twist my idea of God around in any way to help my cause. You must have completely misinterpreted my post. I never stated that God wasn't absolute. I made clear that God is, in fact, and we have ways of looking at "Him" in a more relative perspective by attributing human emotions unto Him. God is not limited by these finite feelings we have. Once again I am not an atheist. I have no idea where you got this idea.
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#27
LOL!
I thought you were implying that God was infinate.
Meaning that what ever we think or say, God will always fill in the blank, whether he's fantasy or real.
Know what I mean?

Ha ha ha ha!
My bad bro
 
Nov 17, 2002
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#28
well, actually God is infinite. And........

Whats fantasy? whats reality? where is the division here? Is it limited to what we know versus what we don't know?


If you thought that I was saying God is infinite then why did you refer to me as an atheist??
 
Jun 5, 2002
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#32
I guess we have different views as to what God is.
All I know is that it is everything, and that it's the architect of the universe....

@miggidy , so what your saying is basically god is disorder and luck because the only reason we even exist in the state we are is because of dumb luck. If you play out the course of the earth a billion different times youll get a billion different results none of which will be human if its done again. Everything is made to eventually go to disorder.

TO the person that said how do cells no how to work and it must be god, im a biochem major and we know exactly how a cell works , our whole existance is based on a billions of mutations since we were unicellular.

But I do agreee that religon does serve a purpose even its a total falacy. Just really think about it to yourself and youll see religon does serve a purpose but no person that is really in tune with everythin our species knows could logically explain the existance of a higher power.
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#37
Bigdogg said:


@miggidy , so what your saying is basically god is disorder and luck because the only reason we even exist in the state we are is because of dumb luck. If you play out the course of the earth a billion different times youll get a billion different results none of which will be human if its done again. Everything is made to eventually go to disorder.

TO the person that said how do cells no how to work and it must be god, im a biochem major and we know exactly how a cell works , our whole existance is based on a billions of mutations since we were unicellular.

But I do agreee that religon does serve a purpose even its a total falacy. Just really think about it to yourself and youll see religon does serve a purpose but no person that is really in tune with everythin our species knows could logically explain the existance of a higher power.
No, that is going against everything that I'm saying and believe.
God is order and not disorder.
And luck isn't the result of God. Blaming luck on God is down right ignorant.
And the fact that there is life here on Earth is not a coincedence if that's what you're implying.
I asked before and I'll ask again;

How many coincedence's must be played out until you give into the fact that it's not a coincedence anymore?

If you don't give into the fact that there is a god after so many so-called coincedence then you are in plain denial.

Does it hurt to acknowledge that there is a higher power?
I do not lie, but every Athiest that I know has an ego problem.
An ego can destroy a man and destroy others as well....
I used to have a huge ego.
Was it a coincedence that while I had this ego trip, I also didn't believe in god?
You have your opinions and I have mine, and I feel that as strong as my ego was, it was humbled only by God, all else failed....

But any how, let me move on to the claim you made about Science knowing everything there is to know on the cellular level.
Do you care to explain that to me, Mr Biochem major?
But here's the catch, you have to identify everything with out using the usual scientific scape-goat "unknown forces"......

While you choke on that one let me break it down to an atomic level. Can you explain to me what are and where the weak and strong forces come from????
Remove those forces and everything from atom to matter consisting of it will have a fusion melt down.
It all makes sense when Jesus prophecised that he will lift the Holy Ghost from our world. It is theorized by Christian scientists that the Holy Ghost represents the invisable forces known to us.
Jesus says that once the Holy Spirit has been lifted, everything will melt down in fiery fusion....

You don't have to believe in this theory, but I do.
I mean, Atheism has only this life to offer.
Christ promises eternal life, you can't beat that.
Why not give it a shot since we're all going to die anyway?

But Christ is another story. Which has a lot of evidence to support it.
Just like God has his evidence.
Come on, you are human. We're intelligent beings, you have to admit that there is as much evidence supporting god than there is supporting no god.
It's about 50-50, depends how you look at it.
The point is, why aren't we teaching both sides of the argument in our schools?
Come on now! We need to come up with the answer and we need to rule out every possibility. And special creation has not been ruled out yet.
But why is it that it's not even taught in our schools?
Is it because Atheists are afraid?
I think not. It's not you guys.
You guys believe what you see, and if you are open minded, then you'll believe what precieves to be correct.
There's something else out there blocking the existance of God.
Some one out there is deliberately hiding God from us.
Why does this feel so similar to what happenned in Russia?
God is their biggest enemy, who ever these people are....
Regardless about what they do, there will always be us.
We who have experienced God....
We who are certain there is a higher power....

For everyone, you all have to admit that there is a growing consent against God. In this country....
I'm not blaming the Atheist community but I'm blaming those consumed by evil.....

Bigdogg,
Props to you for understanding that there is a need for religion.
I can tell that you truely have an open mind.
Everyone out here who disagrees on the need for religion, needs to keep thinking.
Think real hard....
Soon you will come to the conclusion that a form of religion is a neccessity for our survival. We need religion like we need shelter and food.
Through out human civilization, we've always had our gods and idols. Well we're moving into a new era without an idol.
This will only lead to our demise as a civilization.

Hell, we can do with just a fuckin Myth.....

You guys should watch Joe Campbell's "Power of Myth".
A former Christian who became an Atheist but acknowledged that we need myths and religion to survive.

Peace,
Miggidy
 
Jun 28, 2002
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#38
this is a very interesting subject

you guys are debating over creationism versus evolution but you're leaving out "intelligent design", the beleif that evolution alone cannot scientifically explain our existence therefore there had to have been a hand from a higher being in our creation, possibly other than "god".

You cannot ignore the fact that since the beginning of civilized man humans have beleived in gods. There has to be an explanation for why people beleived, other than it "gives you comfort". In the bible the stories depict mortals having encounters with "god". I beleive they did encounter more advanced life, not god but things they could not explain.

The scientific community acknowledges that the first civilization of man was 3800 bc at Sumer, which is modern day mesopotamia. From here came the first alphabets,language,schools,government,etc,etc,etc,etc. How did we go from 25 million years with relatively tiny jumps in evolution to the establishment of the Sumerian culture just 6000 years ago? Can evolution really explain how we transformed from primitive hunters and gatherers into astronomers, architects,beings with a concious veiw of who we are and why we are on earth,practically overnight? No!

If this sounds familiar to you then you have probably read Zecheria Sitchins work. In a nutshell he beleives that primitive man was genetically engineered by the annunaki to create what we are now.

Thats all i'm going to go into now but i highly reccomend reading Sitchin's books.

Visit his website at www.sitchin.com for some interesting reading.
 
Jun 20, 2002
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#40
n9newunsixx5150 said:
Luck, coincidence and randomness are like "magic". They are terms we use for something we can't figure out.

So basically your saying...well, take for instance the Theory of Relativity

not a fact by any "scientific" standard...so by your own admission this is shall we say...


MAGIC???


check....



science and evolution...what are you people even talking for, they cannot co-exsist within the same sentence...

science states something CANNOT come from nothing, that completely wipes out evolution and science being on the same team...

evolution does exsist, just not as a form of creation, i think everyone here will agree that the earth and all its glory did not just happen randomly by chance.

now...

i see one problem here, those that believe in GOD, will always ASSUME it is logical to do so, and the science dept of the siccness will ASSUME logically that GOD does not exsist...

the idea of GOD cannot be believed nor even contimplated without FAITH, because GOD cannot be proven, much like the THEORY of RELATIVITY, can never be proven but a scientist uses his FAITH to believe...


i refuse to knock another persons beliefs, thats no different than judging another persons skin color, or their sexual preference...

acceptance of diversity within our own communities is need for a culture such as ours, we don't have to belive one another, but we must UNDERSTAND and APPRECIATE our fellow man...

i love this discussion, been so long since i have been here


love...