Hitler was an opportunist and you know it 2-0-Sixx. Humans are opportunist, they'll use religion, philosophy, ethnicity, race, political ideologies, arts, science, etc. to secure anything they want. Have you read Ecce homo and Genealogoy of moraals by Nietzsche? Nietzsche's influence on Hitler was not minimal he just renamed and re-contextualized his terms and thoughts (ex. the ubermensch). That's why I try not to subscribe to anything totally...Take the good and push on.
A Theist Strikes Back
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Wagner influenced Hitler in his writings in Mein Kampf...Wagner was a father figure and friend to Nietzsche for sometime, this is one of the reasons Hitler showed interest in Nietzsche. That's one link to Nietzsche, but his connection to Nietzsche comes from his friendship with Nietzshe's sister and visiting the Nietzsche archives (seven times)which the NAZI's kept afloat. But my whole point is that Hitler used Christianity, philosophy, Occultism, Darwinian science, etc. to suit his ambitions -to use him to indict/assault religion is weak, and for D'nesh to use other so-called atheist to assault atheism is weak as well. All of these so-called hardline dogmatists, pushing their brand of bullshit had a great tendency to use or practice other even opposing ideologies when the moment permitted. Overall, I feel both you (2-0-sixx) and D'nesh are making a greater case against the mercurial and treacherous nature of the human race...And leaders amongst us to utilize our want and need for organization to galvanize us to their goals.
Why are you being so narrowminded?
Once more, you are looking at things in black and white. There are several other possibilities to consider outside of atheism and religion.
It has been well established that Hitler had a deep hatred for Jews for reasons stemming from racial superiority. And if you distinguish between prejudice, racism, and racial superiority (there are some differences), then you should understand that these were his convictions. I'm sure you are well aware of the "Master Race" that he so often spoke/wrote about. Further, the Jews were not the only race of people who he deeply resented as he had similar feelings of hatred towards Polish and Slovakian people.
"The Jews were responsible for bringing negroes into the Rhineland with the ultimate idea of bastardising the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate." -Adolf Hitler
(There are countless other examples of his hatred towards Jews and other races)
On top of all this I think it goes without saying that he wanted to completely dominate and control Europe to strengthen Germany (We have seen this throughout the ages).
This is all important because whether he was Christian or Atheist (neither of which account for motive IMO) he could use religion to instill his own beliefs into the German population. Take into account that (1) religion is/was very wide spread and (2) these are people that have devoted their lives to something completely intangible. It was the perfect setup.
Once more, you are looking at things in black and white. There are several other possibilities to consider outside of atheism and religion.
It has been well established that Hitler had a deep hatred for Jews for reasons stemming from racial superiority. And if you distinguish between prejudice, racism, and racial superiority (there are some differences), then you should understand that these were his convictions. I'm sure you are well aware of the "Master Race" that he so often spoke/wrote about. Further, the Jews were not the only race of people who he deeply resented as he had similar feelings of hatred towards Polish and Slovakian people.
"The Jews were responsible for bringing negroes into the Rhineland with the ultimate idea of bastardising the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate." -Adolf Hitler
(There are countless other examples of his hatred towards Jews and other races)
On top of all this I think it goes without saying that he wanted to completely dominate and control Europe to strengthen Germany (We have seen this throughout the ages).
This is all important because whether he was Christian or Atheist (neither of which account for motive IMO) he could use religion to instill his own beliefs into the German population. Take into account that (1) religion is/was very wide spread and (2) these are people that have devoted their lives to something completely intangible. It was the perfect setup.
why is this topic forcused on hitler and not on the church?
even if he claimed to be christian and might not really have been, as the opportunist that he is, but as was just mentioned a few posts back, humans are opportunitists.
fuck hitler, no different than bush.
the main focus should be on the vatican and the opportunism that exist for their own agenda, apart from molesting little boys and girls.
why would the church back hitler?
why did the US president claim "we will not involve ourselves in such a world war" until it became obvious that hitlers army got destroyed . ONLY Then do we join in the fight n raise the american flag.
even if he claimed to be christian and might not really have been, as the opportunist that he is, but as was just mentioned a few posts back, humans are opportunitists.
fuck hitler, no different than bush.
the main focus should be on the vatican and the opportunism that exist for their own agenda, apart from molesting little boys and girls.
why would the church back hitler?
why did the US president claim "we will not involve ourselves in such a world war" until it became obvious that hitlers army got destroyed . ONLY Then do we join in the fight n raise the american flag.
How am I being narrow-minded by discussing the origins of antisemitism? If you want to understand where hatred for Jews comes from you must know history, and thus you would know the influences over Hitler.
Sure, and Martin Luther justified his hatred and influenced his hatred for the jews. Just read the sick shit Martin Luther wrote, in many cases it's worse than Hitler.
And Hitler killed more Communists than jews (which should further prove the author incorrect linking atheism to communism to nazism, which was my entire point).
I don't know why you keep sneaking the term Atheist in there as if there is any proof whatsoever that supports Hitler was anything but a theist.
Regardless, I understand what you're saying and I do not disagree that religion is a tool, as I made that thread years ago. My point is it's absurd to link atheism/communism to hitler, especially considering hitler was neither.
Sure, and Martin Luther justified his hatred and influenced his hatred for the jews. Just read the sick shit Martin Luther wrote, in many cases it's worse than Hitler.
And Hitler killed more Communists than jews (which should further prove the author incorrect linking atheism to communism to nazism, which was my entire point).
I don't know why you keep sneaking the term Atheist in there as if there is any proof whatsoever that supports Hitler was anything but a theist.
Regardless, I understand what you're saying and I do not disagree that religion is a tool, as I made that thread years ago. My point is it's absurd to link atheism/communism to hitler, especially considering hitler was neither.
Allow me to answer this in the form of a question; why, when asked if you believed the nazi's were real christians, did you start talking about atheism?
To me this showed that you thought the alternative to believeing they were real christians was that they were atheists, thus the narrowed perception.
You were asked if you thought the nazi's were "real christians" and in turn started talking about atheism. That was not a part of the question and so naturally I started including the term in my posts as well. The fact of the matter is, christianity and religion are not one in the same. I am personaly a theist, but I am not a real christian or catholic, and I am not an atheist. Do you see what I'm saying?
My apologies, I did not mean to redirect this thread. I have pondered the question he asked for years and was rather interested in hearing your response.
I agree. I have never believed hitler/nazi's were atheists. I really hope you dont believe that is something I was trying to get across.
To me this showed that you thought the alternative to believeing they were real christians was that they were atheists, thus the narrowed perception.
You were asked if you thought the nazi's were "real christians" and in turn started talking about atheism. That was not a part of the question and so naturally I started including the term in my posts as well. The fact of the matter is, christianity and religion are not one in the same. I am personaly a theist, but I am not a real christian or catholic, and I am not an atheist. Do you see what I'm saying?
My apologies, I did not mean to redirect this thread. I have pondered the question he asked for years and was rather interested in hearing your response.
I agree. I have never believed hitler/nazi's were atheists. I really hope you dont believe that is something I was trying to get across.
because man, that's what the author said, "atheism, not religion, is responsible for the greatest mass murders of history." He specifically blamed atheism for the Nazi's actions. I was doing the obvious - debunking any type of myth that Hitler or the Nazi's were atheist.
I stated it's irrelevant because it makes little difference if they were "real" Christians or just simply Christians because nothing they preached said otherwise. All historical evidences proves they were theists, not atheists.
Yes, I understand. I hope you understand my point in this thread is simply to debunk any links between atheism, communism and hitler. They are all not combined into one thing, which is exactly what the author was doing and that is flat out ignorance at its highest degree. In order to believe such statements one has to suspend all prior understanding of history and toss it out the window and say 'fuck you logic, we don't need you anymore!'
There were a wide range of things the article touched, most of which I disagreed with, but this was just too damn outrageous for me not to comment on.
I stated it's irrelevant because it makes little difference if they were "real" Christians or just simply Christians because nothing they preached said otherwise. All historical evidences proves they were theists, not atheists.
Yes, I understand. I hope you understand my point in this thread is simply to debunk any links between atheism, communism and hitler. They are all not combined into one thing, which is exactly what the author was doing and that is flat out ignorance at its highest degree. In order to believe such statements one has to suspend all prior understanding of history and toss it out the window and say 'fuck you logic, we don't need you anymore!'
There were a wide range of things the article touched, most of which I disagreed with, but this was just too damn outrageous for me not to comment on.
Read this:
source
Yep, that's exactly right. Props for knowing your history. From the same link:
So that's basically the link of hitler to Nietzsche and I believe it ends there.
No question about it; hitler used what he could to get what he wanted, no denying that.
Note that Joseph-Arthur de Gobineau invented the theory of the superior Aryan race in the 1800s in his book, An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races. Gobineau believed that racial mixture would bring about the decline of "superior" peoples. Gobineau influenced Richard Wagner (beloved by Hitler), and Houston Stewart Chamberlain (whom Hitler read and met), both of who influenced early National Socialism (and both mentioned in Mein Kampf). Popular in Germany in the 1900s, many Germans accepted Gobineau's ideas and, no doubt, influenced Hitler either directly or indirectly. Moreover, Hitler's "superior" race ideas sound like a combination of Biblical race laws and Gobineau's Aryan race ideas, but not at all like Nietzsche.
source
Yep, that's exactly right. Props for knowing your history. From the same link:
Many have incorrectly believed that Hitler visited the archive on his own volition. Not so. The photo-op idea came from Nietzsche's sister, Elisabeth Förster, a wealthy Nazi supporter, who established the Nietzsche Archive in 1933, It was she who invited Hitler (after much persuasion) to visit the archive for publicity purposes. Hitler visited the archive exactly once and only for political purposes to appease Nietzsche's anti-Semite sister. The event appeared in the German newspapers and William Shirer (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) briefly mentioned the event as if Hitler often visited the archive because he admired Nietzsche. Shirer probably got his information from the German news article rather than from the facts of the event. (Note, scholars have criticized Shirer for his lack of scholarship and poor source material.) Elisabeth Förster also misrepresented Nietzsche by making her brother look like an anti-Semite and a proto-Nazi (Nietzsche's philosophy had little resemblance to the National Socialist German Workers' Party). Unfortunately many Germans fell for the Nietzsche-Nazi connection including many members of the Thule society.
So that's basically the link of hitler to Nietzsche and I believe it ends there.
No question about it; hitler used what he could to get what he wanted, no denying that.
