Pacquiao vs Algieri Nov 22nd, China

[2-0-Sixx]

I said..."age" and Pacquaio not being on "PEDS" has resulted in what you are seeing now from him as far as him not being able to deliver powerful shots like he use to for 12 rounds throwing over 900 shots looking like a buzz saw. His speed has declined but the guy is still fast enough to deliver a quick punch (which should result into a powerful punch)...age will take away his stamina and that will result in a shorter time he operates at an optimal output of 600 plus punches...so an aging fighter compensates by throwing less punches but his POWER should still be there...Pacquiao's power has disappeared accept for the moment in time he was busting up Marquez...then that got stopped abruptly lol. But in 24 rounds with Bradley, 12 rounds with Rios and only maybe 2 1/2 rounds out of 18 rounds combined rounds in Pac/ Marq 3&4 has he displayed any power.

you are killing your entire arguement. Pacquiao was always an accumulation puncher. He didn't have 1 punch KO power. The one exception was Ricky Hatton. Marquez, Barrera, Diaz, et al, Pacquiao beat with speed and tons of combination punching over a long period of time. When that declines and he's punching LESS, he's not as effective. Also take into the account that you completely missed is the MOVEMENT of Pacquiao. Look at his footwork against Rios/Bradley compared to his days at 122/126/130/135. It's not the same. He doesn't have that same bounce and spin, only in spurts.

Mayweather still punches with the same effect as he always has...might not throw as much because of age but his shots are STILL the SAME...checkout when he started popping Canelo and Guerror...same punching power that was hitting Corrales, Gatti, Hatton and De La Hoya. The shit that Manny was busting up Cotto and Margarito with are not the same as what Bradley and Rios were getting hit with...BIG DIFFERNCE.

Floyd is more accurate with his shots than Pacquiao that's why. He's a sharp shooter. Pacquiao overwhelmed his opponents with shots from all angles. Totally different punching techniques and styles.

A Prime Floyd never was in situations like this, ever:

It just didn't happen. His legs aren't the same because of age. This is just the simple truth and I don't see why it's difficult to accept that age has effected both Pacquiao & Mayweather (as I said the difference is Floyd is a technically sound fighter, Pacquiao is more of a Roy Jones type (relied heavily on his naturally abilities and less so on fundamentals).

Bernard Hopkins lost his power with age as well. He hasn't scored a KO in ten years (since Oscar) and yes, a young Hopkins was knocking fools out in his prime (he wasn't called the executioner for no reason). Same went for Roy jones. He was a human KO reel. He couldn't even KO a fat, retired Trinidad.

The whole PED thing is completely irreverent since that is an opinion not fact. Pac never tested positive in his career. Further, there have been dozens of past prime fighters using PEDs and it didn't magically make them not past prime anymore. Once you age and your prime is gone it's gone forever. You don't get it back. Naturally reflexes, speed, etc. you cannot regain and sustain with PED's. Again, Pacquiao is 35 years old with 63 fights, many wars. His body is simply not the same.

 

[The Bay Area]

you are killing your entire arguement. Pacquiao was always an accumulation puncher. He didn't have 1 punch KO power.

I never said Pac had 1 punch KO power....never said that...so since that was the beginning of your response to my post the basis of what you may be saying afterwards is probably TRUE...but it doesn't address what I was saying. If you take the time to listen I am accounting for Pacquaio's age in that his stamina is not the same...as is Floyd's stamina is not the same due to AGE...but Floyd's punching power is still relatively the same from Corrales to Judah to Canelo to Maidanna...Thomas Hearns and Duran had relatively the same punching power throughout their careers...it just Manny's has declined from "ripping shots" to "pitter pats". But like I said I don't think age (at 35 years old) is why Pacquaio's power has declined. I think he was doping and you can't say PEDS don't make a difference because if that were true no athlete would take the risk if it didn't have SUBSTANTIAL REWARDS.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Faceplam.jpg

Did you read the rest of my post or just that one line? I suggest reading it as I covered all that. I.e, Floyd is a sharp shooter/accurate puncher, Pacquiao's power came from speed, accumulation of punches and punching from all sorts of odd angles. Totally different punching techniques. Bernard Hopkins power left him as he aged and many others. You cant lump all fighters into the same boat as everyone ages differently. Lifestyle, diet, fighting style, how many wars a fighters has been in and so many other factors determine all this shit. You cant say just because Tommy Hearns (one of the best punchers of all time) had good power late in his career Pacquiao should too lol. Mike Tyson wasn't even knocking out guys anymore at the end besides for complete bums.

 

[The Bay Area]

Faceplam.jpg

Did you read the rest of my post or just that one line? I suggest reading it as I covered all that. I.e, Floyd is a sharp shooter/accurate puncher, Pacquiao's power came from speed, accumulation of punches and punching from all sorts of odd angles. Totally different punching techniques. Bernard Hopkins power left him as he aged and many others. You cant lump all fighters into the same boat as everyone ages differently. Lifestyle, diet, fighting style, how many wars a fighters has been in and so many other factors determine all this shit. You cant say just because Tommy Hearns (one of the best punchers of all time) had good power late in his career Pacquiao should too lol. Mike Tyson wasn't even knocking out guys anymore at the end besides for complete bums.

Damn...we are saying the SAME THING...I'm not tripping off punching angles and sharp shooters and all that stuff I'm just saying that punching power is the last thing to change so dramatically example: Tyson who belted Lewis and shook him off the first hook he landed...Tyson's speed had declined...Forman could still hit but was slower, Manny still has speed but NO ZIP and I don't think age is playing a part in his decline in punching power nor do I think his ring wars have played a part in his decline because his speed would have suffered...but let's flip this around...IF Manny were indeed taking PEDS what difference do you think it would have made at this point in his career and his performance?

 

[Coach E. No]

@ 20sixx,
I think he could fight that way if he wanted to, but he's mastered his efficient way of fighting that doesn't require that much movement. So in all honesty, I think it would be pointless for him to even bother fighting that way.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Damn...we are saying the SAME THING...I'm not tripping off punching angles and sharp shooters and all that stuff I'm just saying that punching power is the last thing to change so dramatically example: Tyson who belted Lewis and shook him off the first hook he landed...Tyson's speed had declined...Forman could still hit but was slower, Manny still has speed but NO ZIP and I don't think age is playing a part in his decline in punching power nor do I think his ring wars have played a part in his decline because his speed would have suffered...but let's flip this around...IF Manny were indeed taking PEDS what difference do you think it would have made at this point in his career and his performance?

You keep mentioning some of the greatest punchers of all time: Mike Tyson and George Foreman? Pacquiao never had that kind of power. Like I said, Look at Bhop as he aged his KOs vanished. Roy Jones etc. And like you mentioned Pacquiao was beating on Marquez pretty damn good, obviously hurt him and knocked him down before Manny got iced so It's not as if his power is gone. The biggest difference right now is Pacquiao doesn't have that same explosiveness, movement and combination punching he did in the past. Just watch video or gifs of a younger Pacquiao compared to now and It's clear he's not fighting the same, i.e he's aging (and I'm sure getting KTFO made him more hesitant at least against Rios).

 

[2-0-Sixx]

@ 20sixx,
I think he could fight that way if he wanted to, but he's mastered his efficient way of fighting that doesn't require that much movement. So in all honesty, I think it would be pointless for him to even bother fighting that way.

Let me ask you a real simple question: is Mayweather still in his prime at age 37?

 

[Coach E. No]

I'll play your game... no, not at all.

Do I think his stamina is still elite at 37, yes. But maybe it just appears that way because of how efficiently he fights. BHOP has mastered that to fight in the style he needs to at damn near 50. If someone really drags them into deep water, they won't be what they were more than likely. But for now, I'm not sold that Floyd has old legs. I think he doesn't handle pressure well and has mastered efficiency. That's really all I can say about it

 

[The Bay Area]

I'll play your game... no, not at all.

Do I think his stamina is still elite at 37, yes. But maybe it just appears that way because of how efficiently he fights. BHOP has mastered that to fight in the style he needs to at damn near 50. If someone really drags them into deep water, they won't be what they were more than likely. But for now, I'm not sold that Floyd has old legs. I think he doesn't handle pressure well and has mastered efficiency. That's really all I can say about it

@ 206...Going off of of what diggidy405 just said about Floyd economizing his activity...he STILL PUNCHES AS HARD AS HE EVER DID...maybe not as MUCH do to age but his PUNCH IS THE SAME from Corrales to Judah to Canelo to Maidana nothing has really changed in the power department...with Manny his power has changed as well as his work rate. Manny's work rate is due to AGE..the difference in his punching power is a mystery but I'll attribute that to not doping any more. Sorry diggidy408 for having to use your quote to make my point (you might not be in agreement with my theory on Manny) but the reason for Manny's power outage is funny. His refusal of RBT has me thinking he was an abuser.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I'll play your game... no, not at all.

Do I think his stamina is still elite at 37, yes. But maybe it just appears that way because of how efficiently he fights. BHOP has mastered that to fight in the style he needs to at damn near 50. If someone really drags them into deep water, they won't be what they were more than likely. But for now, I'm not sold that Floyd has old legs. I think he doesn't handle pressure well and has mastered efficiency. That's really all I can say about it

It's a really simple question man - is he prime or not. It's a yes or no answer.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

@ 206...Going off of of what diggidy405 just said about Floyd economizing his activity...he STILL PUNCHES AS HARD AS HE EVER DID...maybe not as MUCH do to age but his PUNCH IS THE SAME from Corrales to Judah to Canelo to Maidana nothing has really changed in the power department...with Manny his power has changed as well as his work rate. Manny's work rate is due to AGE..the difference in his punching power is a mystery but I'll attribute that to not doping any more. Sorry diggidy408 for having to use your quote to make my point (you might not be in agreement with my theory on Manny) but the reason for Manny's power outage is funny. His refusal of RBT has me thinking he was an abuser.

He never refused random testing though. His whole deal with the first negotiations was he didn't want to be tested two/three weeks before the fight, Thats where it stalled. If someone is juicing, they do so during training camp while they get in shape, not only days before the fight, and he was willing to do random testing then. After that fight fell through, he agreed to full testing every time it came up. So again the whole PED argument on your part is irrelevantbbecause It's pure speculation based on opinion not fact. Further if you can show me some kind of scientific evidence that if a fighter who is on PEDs then stops suddenly loses all their power then maybe you'd have a point, but you cant because no such scientific data can show that. Even further, power isn't created by PEDs, technique, speed etc are. If Paulie M. started juicing he's not going to become Mike Tyson all of a sudden because he doesn't know how to throw a proper power punch, same with Tim Bradley and the likes. There have been a number of boxers busted for PEDs who couldn't punch for shit. Manny has always been an explosive fighter, watch his old fights at 112, 116 pounds etc

 

[Coach E. No]

I answered the question, and the subsequent questions that were likely to follow.

 

[naner12]

For all the examples of great punchers that carried their power to old age, there's examples like Bob Foster, one of the greatest punchers to ever put on gloves, who didn't record a meaningful stoppage after the age of 34.

I don't know if Pacquiao was/is on PEDs, but I have seen guys get old in the ring a lot faster than what Pacquiao is showing. Sometimes it's dramatic, sometimes it's dragged out, and sometimes your Hopkins, Moore, Foreman etc and do things that people shouldn't do.

People age differently in the ring and a lot of factors are involved.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I answered the question, and the subsequent questions that were likely to follow.

My bad man I read too fast.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

For all the examples of great punchers that carried their power to old age, there's examples like Bob Foster, one of the greatest punchers to ever put on gloves, who didn't record a meaningful stoppage after the age of 34.

I don't know if Pacquiao was/is on PEDs, but I have seen guys get old in the ring a lot faster than what Pacquiao is showing. Sometimes it's dramatic, sometimes it's dragged out, and sometimes your Hopkins, Moore, Foreman etc and do things that people shouldn't do.

People age differently in the ring and a lot of factors are involved.

Exactly man, good post.

 

[Coach E. No]

I forgot to add, I think a lot of it also came down to Floyd moving up in weight. His hand problems doesn't allow him to punch at a target with such abandon anymore, and that's why I said he would've been more dominant at a lower weight. Can't expect him to really let his hands go over 12 rounds when a dude weighs 170 like Canelo did, or even 160+ like Maidana probably did. He did punch with more abandon against Hatton, but he was a tiny WW. Floyd used his legs A LOT against Guerrero if I remember correctly. But he's not going to punch a huge target in massive combinations in fear of getting floored by a bigger guy, and fear of hurting his brittle hands.

 

[Coach E. No]

For all the examples of great punchers that carried their power to old age, there's examples like Bob Foster, one of the greatest punchers to ever put on gloves, who didn't record a meaningful stoppage after the age of 34.

I don't know if Pacquiao was/is on PEDs, but I have seen guys get old in the ring a lot faster than what Pacquiao is showing. Sometimes it's dramatic, sometimes it's dragged out, and sometimes your Hopkins, Moore, Foreman etc and do things that people shouldn't do.

People age differently in the ring and a lot of factors are involved.

Good post. power is often the last thing to go, but I thought he was about to knock the iron chinned Marquez out (who I think was on roids or at least some form of PED's) right before he got ko'd himself. He also had Mosley badly hurt who had never been stopped until his last fight with back spasms. His power is still there, but he moved up in weight and he's been fighting elite guys. It's always harder to knock those types of guys out. That's consistent throughout boxing.

 

[The Bay Area]

Look I understand that fighters age differently...fighters employ different mechanics when throwing a punch...I get that...but Pac still has his speed or has most of it when he was banging Rios' head left to right...he still has the same mechanics...so I don't attribute AGE to his decline in power because speed generates power (along with foot pivoting, hip torque, commitment to the punch and extension). Pac still has that...but the punches don't have the same impact as what was ripping through Cotto that one counter right hook early in the fight took the life out of Cotto and sent him to the canvas. Shane Mosely claiming he has NEVER been hit that hard...the look on Shane's' face...if age played a factor in Pac's power outage tanking then his speed should be shot as well...my question is why do boxers use PEDS if it doesn't help them in any significant way? Why go through the risk?

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Look I understand that fighters age differently...fighters employ different mechanics when throwing a punch...I get that...but Pac still has his speed or has most of it when he was banging Rios' head left to right...he still has the same mechanics...so I don't attribute AGE to his decline in power because speed generates power (along with foot pivoting, hip torque, commitment to the punch and extension). Pac still has that...but the punches don't have the same impact as what was ripping through Cotto that one counter right hook early in the fight took the life out of Cotto and sent him to the canvas. Shane Mosely claiming he has NEVER been hit that hard...the look on Shane's' face...if age played a factor in Pac's power outage tanking then his speed should be shot as well...my question is why do boxers use PEDS if it doesn't help them in any significant way? Why go through the risk?

Did anything Pacquiao do in the ring resemble the Cotto fight man? Looked totally different. For one, because he was boxing and not fighting Rios like he did Cotto (trading punches). Pacquiao was on his feet the entire fight. Two, he's not the same guy anymore (age and getting KTFO the fight prior will do that alone, there doesn't need to be any other reason. Most guys who get put to sleep don't look exactly the same their next fight, some are never the same.).

 

[Coach E. No]

Not to mention his life is just totally different now. He's a full time congressman, dad of 49 kids, more devout in his faith, etc... not to mention the knock out. A lot of those things, plus age, are really only going to slow down a lot of reflexes, punching power, etc... when you're not just a full time boxer