BloodyElbow Exclusive: Interview With WAMMA CEO Dave Szady and COO Michael Lynch
BB: Why don't we start by giving you a chance to explain what the goal of WAMMA is.
DS: The world alliance of mixed martial arts or WAMMA is a corporate organization it has angel backers it is a for profit organization. It is a multi-faceted organization, it is more than a sanctioning body. It is very fan and fighter forward looking. Part of what we do, of course, is sanction world championship bouts and those bouts are based on the independent, totally objective WAMMA rankings that are done by 20 members of the MMA media, with no influence from any promoter or WAMMA itself. We are also very fighter forward looking. For example, Randy Couture and Pat Miletich are going to co-chair a fighter advisory board for WAMMA to take on such issues as fighter health care, fighter pensions, and other concerns that fighters may have for themselves. Our goal is to act as an overarching organization across promotional lines for the best interest of the fighters and forward looking for the fans by giving them the best fights they can see that will produce a true world champion.
ML: I would just add and reiterate that WAMMA is much more than a mere sanctioning body. Our long term goal is to invest back into the sport of MMA by contributions such as a fighter pension fund, insurance programs for fighters, a financial education seminar for fighters, referee and judge training and an investment in amateur MMA with the goal of having MMA or some other MMA hybrid eventually recognized as an Olympic sport.
Follow after the fold for the full interview:
BB: Allow me to apologize in advance, this interview is going to focus primarily as WAMMA as a sanctioning body.
DS: That’s fine; the only thing I want to emphasize is that it is more than that. Most of the criticism we get is from people who look at WAMMA as a sanctioning body modeled after sanctioning bodies within boxing and that is exactly the model that we didn’t want to re-create. We wanted to take what was good from boxing but at the same time change the so called sanctioning body concept as it existed in boxing.
BB: Are you going to be requiring sanctioning fees for title fights from either fighters or promotions?
DS: No. We are not taking any sanctioning fee from a promoter nor are we taking any percentage of a purse from a fighter. Our business model and our revenue stream come strictly from our sponsors for the WAMMA belt or for sponsoring the events themselves along with the promoters.
ML: That is worth reiterating, WAMMA is in no way charging a sanctioning fee from the Affliction promotion nor are we asking for a percentage of the fighter’s purses. As Dave said we truly are trying to emulate the best aspects of boxing’s sanctioning bodies while eliminating all the aspects of sanctioning bodies that we find in boxing that will be a detriment to the sport.
BB: Great news. Something you just hit on with Affliction. Is WAMMA initially only going to be affiliated with Affliction? Or is it going to be whatever match-ups represent the spirit of what you’re trying to do?
DS: It’s the latter. We are not associated with any individual promotional group. What we will do is sanction bouts cross boundaries of promotional groups. No matter what promotion that is. We’ve talked to them all and most of them have been very cooperative and very willing to listen and to understand the concept and to put it in practice. So Adrenaline, Affliction, HDNet, Strikeforce all are committed to having WAMMA Champions across promotional lines. We’ve talked to EliteXC also and they are in favor of the concept, they support it but have a couple issues. But it is nothing that we can’t work out. And of course the big issue is the UFC, we have the utmost respect for all that they have done in the sport and we hope that one day they will recognize the value of having cross promotional champions and producing WORLD champions and not just promotional champions.
ML: I would add to that that we at WAMMA have nothing but admiration for the UFC. The incredible gains that the sport of MMA has garnered essentially under their leadership as the dominant MMA brand. However, just take a look at the sport right now and it is very different than it was five years ago, the sport is rapidly expanding with the addition of forward looking promotions such as Affliction, HDNet Fights, Adrenaline, Strikeforce, EXC and we truly believe that the future of the sport lies in cross-promotion.
BB: How severely does it hamper WAMMA should the UFC, DREAM in Japan or any of the other “major promotions” are unwilling to embrace the concept?
DS: Well it certainly has an impact, there is no doubt about that. I’ll let Mike take most of this question but obviously most of the middleweights in the WAMMA rankings are coming from the UFC. Yet the UFC is unwilling to allow their fighters to fight members of other promotional groups and that presents a problem. We don’t see any problem getting WAMMA world championship bouts in the heavyweight division or even looking at a lot of the light weight divisions including fighters in Japan. But we would like to see the UFC come on board and allow their fighters to fight. Also it’s an inter-promotional championship concept too because you could have two fighters from within the same promotional group fighting for the WAMMA world championship as would happen with several of those middleweight divisions.
ML: Yeah Brent, I would add that this goes to some questions about WAMMA’s ranking system. There have been some allegations that somehow the WAMMA rankings are prejudiced against the UFC. This myth could easily be dispelled by just simply taking a look at the WAMMA rankings. With the sole exception of the heavyweight division Zuffa fighters dominate the rankings in practically every other weight division. In some months UFC and WEC fighters have comprised 1-10 in an entire division. And that kind of goes back to your question of what is WAMMA to do when, for example, Zuffa fighters control the top rankings in a weight division? Clearly what we will attempt to do is look within our rankings to find fighters in other promotions who are cooperative with WAMMA and stage WAMMA title fights but these have to be, of course, ranked fighters by our objective and independent ranking board. It is the hope that as more of these championship fights take place that the UFC will jump on board with the idea of an undisputed and unified champion. And remember, we’re not here to end promotional champions, just to add the top tier beyond promotional lines.
BB: Someone like Dana White has to look at the UFC as having a death-grip on the casual fan image of what MMA is right now. How are you trying to sell WAMMA to the UFC that this is important and there is something beyond their own championship? What is the benefit to them?
DS: I think that is a great question. First of all we usually answer that by saying that we’re not promoters, we don’t ever want to be promoters and we don’t ever want to own fighters so we’re not a threat to any promotional group from that perspective. What I think is that the sport has been taken to a certain level, the UFC has been primarily responsible for that. But now from a business perspective, looking forward as to where this sport goes for it’s legitimacy and for it’s longevity I think the fans are demanding that there be a true world champion in each one of the weight divisions and not just promotional champions, although those can still exist. And I think what is happening within the sport from a business perspective is that corporate America is becoming involved like Donald Trump. What this does is add a very strong business competitive environment within MMA which I think is good for MMA in the long-run. Having one major promotional group may not necessarily be so. If you have other strong promotional groups it is certainly going to advance the fighters and what they can get out of the sport, it’s going to give more to the fans, and eventually it will give them the type of champion that they are looking for.
BB: I can see certain ways where it would benefit the UFC. Such as the light heavyweight division (where currently 1-10 are all Zuffa fighters)…
DS: Right, and they would be the sole promoter of any WAMMA title bout if their two fighters were the ones fighting for it. They look at it, I imagine, in that their business model has worked and they are the dominant force with many of the best fighters. But I think in this modern business era as corporate America starts to get involved as sponsors or other major promoters come into the arena and have the type of money that UFC does and can compete you have to look at your business model and say “we don’t necessarily need to be totally cooperative but at the same time a world championship or world champion makes sense and that may require a cross-promotional fight” and that it is in their best interest to do that. I suppose they would have an argument on the other side saying that the UFC champion IS the world champion, which makes sense only if there is one promotional group called the UFC. If there are other very competitive groups you eventually could have fighters leaving one promotional group and going to another, particularly if they want to fight for the WAMMA championship. And what we’re finding with all fighters, including UFC fighters, is that they would all like to fight for a world championship belt.
BB: What complications are there from the fact that the “unified rules” aren’t used by all promotions? For example the IFL restricts elbows to the head, knees to the head of a grounded opponent are allowed in Japan, etc. How do different rulesets affect the fights in regards to WAMMA?
ML: As to rules within various promotions WAMMA is flexible in that regard. I do want to point out, however, that although it is one of the goals of WAMMA to strongly push for unified rules applying to all MMA promotions, we believe that if the fighters and the promotions can work out their differences we are not the promoters. And if those groups can agree on a set of rules WAMMA should not be there to impose an additional set of regulations.
BB: If you feel that the fight is between two fighters deserving of a world championship fight…as long as the rules are agreed on by the fighters and the promotions involved you are willing to sanction that bout?
DS: That is correct.
BB: I’d like to move on to the big news that came out of Fedor vs. Sylvia being for the WAMMA heavyweight title at the Affliction PPV. These are questions that are coming from our readers. How was it determined that these two fighters represent the top two contenders for the WAMMA title?
ML: First and foremost I truly believe that Fedor vs. Tim Sylvia absolutely represents an undisputed championship fight. Fedor is ranked number one not only in WAMMA’s rankings but in the vast majority of rankings throughout the sport. As everyone knows the UFC champion Nogueira can not fight for a WAMMA championship because the UFC is not cooperating with WAMMA at this juncture and Randy Couture’s legal problems prohibit him at this juncture from fighting outside of the UFC. Just today the new June rankings came out and Josh Barnett has taken over the fourth spot previously held by Tim Sylvia. The reason why we do not have a Barnett/Fedor card is because Josh was previously committed to fight on the Affliction: Banned card before we completed negotiations with the promotion and Tim Sylvia was ranked forth so it was a natural undisputed, unified championship fight. Back to Fedor there have been some questions as to why Fedor remains in the number one position and I would argue, even though I don’t participate in our ranking board, that he is clearly fought the very best each and every time. He has dominated Nogueira on several occasions and I certainly think he has been triumphant against the very best that the sport has to offer and is almost universally regarded as an MMA machine. As to Tim Sylvia I would talk about that Sylvia has been actively fighting each and every opponent placed in front of him and even in his losses he has been extremely competitive with the very best in the sport. So just to reiterate we certainly think that this truly is an undisputed championship title fight and we’re proud to be associated with those two fighters.
DS: Obviously you’d always like to have the number one and number two fighters go at it. But with Randy’s legal problems we could sanction it but he wouldn’t be able to fight. And with Nogueira not being able to fight due to the UFC it went to Sylvia who at the time was the forth ranked heavyweight fighter and is still in the top five. And we still think that it makes a championship fight. And the defense of it of course will go to whoever is ranked and capable of fighting after this particular fight.
BB: So there is no real issue in WAMMA’s eyes with Tim Sylvia being 1-2 in his last few fights and the fact that Fedor hasn’t fought a top level heavyweight since…we’ll say August of ’05. I personally can see Fedor being involved but a lot of people are questioning how someone who is 1-2 can be in an “undisputed” world title fight. I understand the concept of him being in the top 5 but…
DS: Well certainly everyone, including WAMMA would have loved to have seen a Couture/Fedor fight. And maybe down the road if Randy can get his legal problems behind him that fight would take place. WAMMA would always want the highest ranked fighters to be involved. We will expect a defense of the title within one years time.
ML: Let me just follow up on Fedor’s record. In my mind some of the criticism of Fedor is that he hasn’t consistently fought the very best in each and every one of his fights. In my mind it is inconceivable that a fighter must face his most fearsome competition each and every time he steps into the ring or the cage. And I want to use this as an example, Anderson Silva is now going to be fighting outside of his title weight division to do battle with James Irvin and no one is going to say that it isn’t a meaningful fight but certainly it isn’t one where his title would be on the line. But everyone is going to watch that fight and enjoy that fight. And as for title defenses WAMMA will institute a time period in which the winner of Fedor/Sylvia will have to face a ranked WAMMA opponent to maintain their belt status.
BB: That was where I wanted to go next. Your website says that you are trying to establish quality competition in MMA with your champions defending against qualified opponents. So were Fedor to win the title he would be expected to, within a year timeframe, defend against a legitimate opponent and if not he would be stripped?
DS: Yes, in fact in negotiations with the Russians in order to have them agree to have Fedor first fight for the belt and second accept the belt and third keep the belt as sort of a promotion, the question from the Russians was “What if he doesn’t defend it?” and the answer was that if he doesn’t defend it within a reasonable amount of time, meaning six months to one year he would be stripped of that title. You always want to try to get the number one and two fighting but it becomes a matter of if people can fight or will fight.
BB: I just wanted to give you guys a few moments to cover any other stuff that is important to you before we go.
ML: If I could I wouldn’t mind using this as a forum to kind of dispel a lot of the rumors I’ve read about WAMMA on the MMA forums. One of the things I’ve been hearing about WAMMA is the sanctioning fees and taxing of fighters purses which of course we have said we will not be doing. The other thing is the idea that we are trying to do away with promotional champions and that is simply not the case. There is also the alphabet soup argument against WAMMA. Right now there are a multitude of promotional champions in the sport and in my mind the sport of MMA has an alphabet soup problem that far surpasses any that exist in boxing. For example, even small promotions that only attract three to five hundred fans regularly award championship and even world championship titles at their fights. Now I’m not knocking these promotions in any way and I’m not diminishing the value of promotional champions because even the small regional organizations help generate interest in the sport. And since many of these organizations depend heavily on gate receipts in their business model having a promotional championship at stake on a fight card naturally adds value and allure to an event. However, the alphabet soup of having all these promotional champions already exists and it is more confusing for the fans and the fighters than boxing’s scenario has ever been. WAMMA seeks to be the one true champion that crosses promotional lines. We are not contributing to an alphabet soup, it is actually doing the reverse.
DS: And then the other issue or criticism was, what is to prevent other sanctioning bodies from coming into the picture and confusing the issue. And the answer is, nothing except the acceptance of the promoters to have WAMMA be the one true sanctioning and ranking body and the promoters say “we don’t need multiple sanctioning bodies” and WAMMA is more than that WAMMA is a multi-faceted MMA alliance. We recognize them as that bridge across promotional lines and we don’t need five organizations like that.
BB: So you aren’t entirely worried about the potential success of Fedor/Sylvia leading people to seeing a “one world champion” and then saying “I’m going to start BAMMA now.” That isn’t a big concern for you?
DS: Well no, from a competitive angle there is nothing to say that can’t happen. This is America and anybody can form a business and be competitive. But what we hope would prevent that is that we were out first and as I’ve said before “the firstest with the mostest” that is recognized by the MMA world itself as a sanctioning body so that we don’t get into this mix of sanctioning bodies which the UFC does talk about as a criticism and I agree with that. You wouldn’t want to have multiple sanctioning bodies and multiple champions within the sanctioning arena like we now have within the promotions. Again, we support the champions within the promotions but look forward to a one WAMMA world champion. We would hope that what we offered across the board is sufficient for the MMA world to accept us as totally transparent and one of integrity. One of the reasons I came to be the CEO after 33 years with the FBI was in order to bring that face of integrity, to create transparency within the MMA world and to create and add to the legitimacy and to help with the longevity of the sport. I think that is what we bring to the table and is what puts us out in front and may create the atmosphere where only one organization is necessary.
BB: Anything else you guys wanted to address? Any further myths to dispel?
ML: There has been a lot of chat on the internet as well about our rankings and I do want to set the record straight about how our rankings are comprised. First off, WAMMA is very proud of our rankings. We think they are the gold standard of the sport. WAMMA, Dave Szady, and myself have no role in those rankings whatsoever. The ranking committee itself consists of 20 well known and established journalists and I would say industry insiders. We have no influence on these rankings although I do sit on the ranking committee myself I have no vote I am merely an administrator. When we look at rankings here there has been some rumors that we only rank fighters within cooperative promotions and that of course is not the case. We rank throughout promotional lines. All of these things could easily be addressed if people simply took a look at the rankings and you can see that Zuffa fighters dominate most divisions even though they are not cooperative at this time.
BB: One other thing that I’ve heard a few rumblings of…are the voting members given a blank ballot or are they given a list of, say, 15 fighter and told “rank these fighters?”
DS: Blank ballot.
ML: They have a blank ballot. It is completely within the pollster’s decision making who they are going to place 1-10 100%. WAMMA has no influence whatsoever over which fighters are ranked.
DS: And the fighters love it. Especially if you come from a smaller promotion. Because you could eventually be recognized, establish a fanbase and eventually through your fights move up these rankings. That is one other point we’d like to make also is that we’re hoping to make the fighter become the face of MMA, not necessarily the promotions itself so that fighters can have promotional opportunities and contracts as say NFL football players do. They could have their own contract, their own promotional push and could individually become the face of MMA as well as the promotional organization.
BB: Well that is all the time we have. Thank you for your time.
ML: We do appreciate the opportunity. It somewhat pains me at times to see all the things that are written about WAMMA and I do appreciate having the opportunity to speak with you and kind of dispel some of those myths. We’re really excited about that Affliction card, I think it is a fan’s dream and for WAMMA’s coming out party with that inaugural champion to be on possibly the single best fight card every put together.
