Juan Manuel Marquez vs Timothy Bradley
- Thread starter 2-0-Sixx
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Pacquiao...is a cheater...he cheated RBT for years...he cheated his fans by side stepping the process...he cheated his fans by not devoting his 100% effort into boxing and gave a half hearted efforts by admitting he "underestimated" Marquez in the 3rd and 4th fights...I don't think he put forth 100% in the Bradley fight either...I still question how do you go through 3 months of training and sparring then pull up limp on a calf strain in 2 fights...either your not training hard enough as far as running goes cause that calf excuse only happens when you are out of shape and you attempt to run...it works itself out as you get in better condition. What I'm trying to say is Manny is not relevant as a top tier fighter and P4p candidate as a list of other boxers have more merit at this stage and perspective time:
1- Mayweather
2- Ward
3- Garcia, Hopkins, Bradley, Klit bothers
4- GGG, Rigo
5- Broner
6- Alvarado
7- Marquez
8- Rios
9- In know I skipped over the light heavy weight/ cruiser wight division but I'm not familiar with them...
10- Chavez Jr
11- Amir Khan
12-.........(You can fill in 7 more names above Pacman)
19- ????
20- Manny Pacquiao, Orlando Cruz
With my limited knowledge of boxing this is where I see Manny Pacquiao at the current moment as far as P4P...thank you.
1- Mayweather
2- Ward
3- Garcia, Hopkins, Bradley, Klit bothers
4- GGG, Rigo
5- Broner
6- Alvarado
7- Marquez
8- Rios
9- In know I skipped over the light heavy weight/ cruiser wight division but I'm not familiar with them...
10- Chavez Jr
11- Amir Khan
12-.........(You can fill in 7 more names above Pacman)
19- ????
20- Manny Pacquiao, Orlando Cruz
With my limited knowledge of boxing this is where I see Manny Pacquiao at the current moment as far as P4P...thank you.
I reckon he's gotta be top five now. This is how I got it:
1. Mayweather
2. Andre Ward
3. Guillermo Rigondeaux
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Timothy Bradley
6. Danny Garcia
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Nonito Donaire
10. Manny Pacquiao
On the verge of cracking top ten: Carl Froch, Golovkin, Adonis Stevenson, Mikey Garcia, Kovalev, Lara, Keith Thurman, Devon Alexander, Cotto, Broner, Takashi Uchiyama, Leo Santa Cruz
1. Mayweather
2. Andre Ward
3. Guillermo Rigondeaux
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Timothy Bradley
6. Danny Garcia
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Nonito Donaire
10. Manny Pacquiao
On the verge of cracking top ten: Carl Froch, Golovkin, Adonis Stevenson, Mikey Garcia, Kovalev, Lara, Keith Thurman, Devon Alexander, Cotto, Broner, Takashi Uchiyama, Leo Santa Cruz
Props:
The Bay Area
Martinez destroyed Chavez. Yeah he got knocked down (he always does) but that doesn't take away he's schooling for 11 and a half rounds. But with that said he didn't look great against Murray coming off injury so I'm cool with swapping Martinez and Bradley.
I hold firm on Rigondeaux though, he absolutely schooled the fighter of the year in Donaire.
Bradley, let's not forget nearly died,.nearly lost to Ruslan and clearly lost to Pacquiao. That's why I have Rigo and Martinez ahead. Bradley had two bad fights followed by a really good win over Marquez.
I hold firm on Rigondeaux though, he absolutely schooled the fighter of the year in Donaire.
Bradley, let's not forget nearly died,.nearly lost to Ruslan and clearly lost to Pacquiao. That's why I have Rigo and Martinez ahead. Bradley had two bad fights followed by a really good win over Marquez.
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Lol Marquez can be such an annoying twat sometimes smdh
"These kind of decisions hurt boxing and make people walk away [from the sport]. The judges denied me the welterweight title in 2011 and they have done so once again. I can't win a decision in Las Vegas, the only way I can win in Las Vegas is by knockout. My wife didn't want me to take the Bradley fight, [she wanted me to retire], so I have to speak to her and my family and make a decision on what I plan to do next. I felt good in the fight, but I've been saying that I might retire after the Pacquiao fight [in December 2012]. We'll see what's going to happen in the future," Marquez said.*
"These kind of decisions hurt boxing and make people walk away [from the sport]. The judges denied me the welterweight title in 2011 and they have done so once again. I can't win a decision in Las Vegas, the only way I can win in Las Vegas is by knockout. My wife didn't want me to take the Bradley fight, [she wanted me to retire], so I have to speak to her and my family and make a decision on what I plan to do next. I felt good in the fight, but I've been saying that I might retire after the Pacquiao fight [in December 2012]. We'll see what's going to happen in the future," Marquez said.*
@2-0-Sixx
but we can't play God with the records tho. Although I do agree Manny won, the judges gave the win to Bradley and that's that. He is the only fighter to beat Manny and Marquez and we have to respect that. Joel Diaz is even talking about rematching manny so all the doubters like us can shut up but who knows how Bradley will feel about fighting in Asia. If that happens it will be a huge fight that can really retire Manny. I was sad once again with JMM loss, but it was not a robbery Bradley won and we have to rank him in the top 3
I would put Stevenson above Bradley and Pac. Cloud gave up. Dawson was knocked the fuck out, yeah one of his last fights was against Cabdriver Boone, but Boone is the ONLY boxer who has put Ward down in a professional fight. Pac? We'll he's coming off two losses. One of those losses is questionable but it is still a loss. Bradley? Before his recent outing he had two questionable wins. So yeah, Stevenson should be ranked above these two guys right about now.
Stevenson looked great in his last two fights but he's not there yet. Dawson was coming off a TKO loss to Ward in which he went down a weight class and Cloud was coming off a loss to 78 year old Hopkins.
Pacquiao beat Bradley, period. Officially Pernell Whitaker didn't beat Chavez Sr but his p4p ranking was not effected because everyone knew he won, same should hold true for Pac. He beat the guy who just beat the guy that knocked him out.
Pacquiao beat Bradley, period. Officially Pernell Whitaker didn't beat Chavez Sr but his p4p ranking was not effected because everyone knew he won, same should hold true for Pac. He beat the guy who just beat the guy that knocked him out.
@2-0-Sixx
but we can't play God with the records tho. Although I do agree Manny won, the judges gave the win to Bradley and that's that. He is the only fighter to beat Manny and Marquez and we have to respect that. Joel Diaz is even talking about rematching manny so all the doubters like us can shut up but who knows how Bradley will feel about fighting in Asia. If that happens it will be a huge fight that can really retire Manny. I was sad once again with JMM loss, but it was not a robbery Bradley won and we have to rank him in the top 3
Stevenson has looked great in his last nine fights. Go look at his record. So what if Dawson was coming off a loss? Who did he lose to? Ward who you have ranked at 2. Pac is coming off two losses and you still have him ranked. Then you talk about Cloud coming off a loss to Hopkins but Hopkins is ranked in YOUR top ten, so it's not like Cloud lost to a member of the bum of the month club. Both the guys Stevenson beat are ranked. Both the guys Pac lost to are ranked. The difference is Pac lost while Stevenson dominated. Not to mention Stevenson is at the top of the Light Heavyweights. Shit he should be ranked higher than BHOP right now just based on that.
In spirit yes, but the records don't reflect that. You will get no argument from me that Pac beat Timmy boy, but the fact is he has an L on the record for that fight. Robbed? Absolutely, but we can't do anything about that.
Then Pac was almost decapitated in the ring. Jesus would have had problems bringing Pac back to life if he had died in the ring, that's how brutal the KO was. He almost got the Johnny Cage treatment in there.
But the thing is Pac lost before he got knocked out.
Stevenson > Pac.
In spirit yes, but the records don't reflect that. You will get no argument from me that Pac beat Timmy boy, but the fact is he has an L on the record for that fight. Robbed? Absolutely, but we can't do anything about that.
Then Pac was almost decapitated in the ring. Jesus would have had problems bringing Pac back to life if he had died in the ring, that's how brutal the KO was. He almost got the Johnny Cage treatment in there.
But the thing is Pac lost before he got knocked out.
Stevenson > Pac.
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Stevenson has fought one good opponent, though. And one decent opponent. Last 9 fights? No one there. Pacquiao has fought great opponents and was pound for pound #1 and #2 for years. So Stevenson beats Dawson and Cloud and he's better than Pacquiao? No way man.
I bring up Dawson loss because of the context. He went down in weight and was knocked out by a guy who doesn't knock people out (Ward). John Scully, his ex trainer, talked about how sick Dawson was making weight. So the weight loss, gets KO'd by not a good puncher, goes back up in weight and KO'd by the first punch landed in the fight? Classic Roy Jones right here. A guy who never been beat, loses weight too fast and his KO'd by Tarver and immediately KO'd in his following fight. So the context is important.
Now, if Stevenson was the guy that beat Dawson first, not Ward, it would have been much more meaningfull. As of right now it looks to me Dawson is on Jermain Taylor status. That chin is destroyed, he's finished. Dawson will retire within 1-2 years, watch.
I bring up Dawson loss because of the context. He went down in weight and was knocked out by a guy who doesn't knock people out (Ward). John Scully, his ex trainer, talked about how sick Dawson was making weight. So the weight loss, gets KO'd by not a good puncher, goes back up in weight and KO'd by the first punch landed in the fight? Classic Roy Jones right here. A guy who never been beat, loses weight too fast and his KO'd by Tarver and immediately KO'd in his following fight. So the context is important.
Now, if Stevenson was the guy that beat Dawson first, not Ward, it would have been much more meaningfull. As of right now it looks to me Dawson is on Jermain Taylor status. That chin is destroyed, he's finished. Dawson will retire within 1-2 years, watch.
Based on recent performances Stevenson is better than Pac. Stevenson didn't get his brain knocked out of his head, Pac did. Stevenson didn't have a questionable loss, Pac does. Based on performances during the last year, yes I would place him higher.
You can't blame it on him being weight drained and sick. He got put down by Ward because his chin was pathetic. He got put down by Stevenson because Stevenson ko's niggas. Go look at his last fight and go back to his first loss. Five tko's and 3 ko's. Dawson was gonna get his scalp parted regardless. And look what he did to Cloud, nigga didn't even wanna continue.
Who beat him in such a convincing fashion? Stevenson. And look at all the people Floyd beat before Manny beat. So if we apply the same school of thought to Manny we can go ahead and take several fighters off of Pacs list, so where does that leave him?
As for Dawson, he is done. He should just retire and move into something a bit more comfortable.
You can't blame it on him being weight drained and sick. He got put down by Ward because his chin was pathetic. He got put down by Stevenson because Stevenson ko's niggas. Go look at his last fight and go back to his first loss. Five tko's and 3 ko's. Dawson was gonna get his scalp parted regardless. And look what he did to Cloud, nigga didn't even wanna continue.
Who beat him in such a convincing fashion? Stevenson. And look at all the people Floyd beat before Manny beat. So if we apply the same school of thought to Manny we can go ahead and take several fighters off of Pacs list, so where does that leave him?
As for Dawson, he is done. He should just retire and move into something a bit more comfortable.
If Dawson had such a pathetic chin, why was he never stopped before? Not against Glen Johnson, Adamek, Tarver, Hopkins, Pascal, etc, but goes down in weight and is stopped by....Ward? Same thing happened to Roy Jones. Or Chris Byrd. Not to take away from Ward's performance, he's awesome, but Dawson has a huge body frame. His trainer advised against it said it wouldn't be healthy and he was right. Dawson was wobbly from the first shot.
If you're going only by the last year, then sure Stevenson is higher. But Thats not how one generally makes a pound for pound list. Contender fir fighter of the year, yes.
Also as I mentioned before, in divisional ranking you have to rank official wins and losses. A robbery counts. Pound for Pound is different, so Pacquiao, in the eyes of 99%, has a win over Bradley and a loss to Marquez in his past two fights. Bradley is obviously a higher quality opponent than Dawson or Cloud.
If you're going only by the last year, then sure Stevenson is higher. But Thats not how one generally makes a pound for pound list. Contender fir fighter of the year, yes.
Also as I mentioned before, in divisional ranking you have to rank official wins and losses. A robbery counts. Pound for Pound is different, so Pacquiao, in the eyes of 99%, has a win over Bradley and a loss to Marquez in his past two fights. Bradley is obviously a higher quality opponent than Dawson or Cloud.
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I'm interested to know how are Manny Pacquiao and Nonito Donaire over Mike Alvarado after Mike avenged his loss to Brandon Rios...Rios being the same fighter that Pacquiao has to beat convincingly to get back on track? When Pacquiao chose money over honor and didn't give Timothy Bradley the rematch then proceeded to lose the next fight he hurt himself 2xs. Alvarado also has a championship belt...you don't even have Alvarado as an honorable mention. In my P4P list I forgot Segrio Martinez and Nonito you made a good call. But with the addition of those two names it further pushes Pacquioa down the list. As a P4P top entry you should at least have a belt or vacated a belt to move up or down to fight in a new weight class or be a #1 contender...in Manny's last two fights he has been KO'd in one fight and lost his title belt in the other fight: his 3rd fight he is coming in with retirement calling at him and his chin being questioned like Amir Khan's. Saul Canelo Alvarez held 2 belts at 154 lbs and only suffered 1 loss in his last 3 fights...his loss coming via split decision...so he should be one over, under or tie with Nonito Donaire as 8th, 9th or 10th spot further taking Manny Pacquiao away from relevancy. Also Canelo returns with possible match ups with Martinez or Cotto both opponents who are more dangerous who have wins in their last fights unlike what is going on with Manny vs Rios.
Glen Johnson? The guy with like 18 or 19 losses? Hopkins? When was the last time Hopkins stopped someone? Adamak? Not a KO artist. Tarver? Come on man, his last ko was in 2007. Pascal? Aside from Blades his last KO was in like 2007 or some shit. Those guys aren't koing guys so even if his chin is pathetic they aren't going to knock him out. Now compare them to a guy who DOES knock people out, Stevenson, and there you have it.
Again, even if he were 100% healthy, which I believe he was, he would have still been knocked out. He was fighting a KO artist. Look at the guys fights dating back to his only loss. He beat Cloud and made him quit, he knocked out Dawson and everyone else were ko's and tko's.
Give me a break, there is no general consensus as to how to make a P4P list. Shit, the Klitcko brothers or however you spell there name, they get put on the list? For barely beating bums in a division that is D-E-A-D?
Before the ko Dawson was ranked and Cloud was ranked high enough to get the fight with Stevenson. And when I say ranked I'm talking about divisional rankings. I'm sorry man, but even when it comes to P4P, there ain't no general consensus. Look at how many different people we have in the lists already given. So yeah, based on recent performance I'd say Stevenson should be ranked higher than Pac.
ETA: and why the FUCK is hopkins calling out Floyd when he should be concerned about Stevenson?
ETA 2: Shit look at The Bay Ares list. His number 9 spot is open and he says it could be filled with a light heavy. Stevenson is the #1 ranked light heavy. Give him the spot.
Again, even if he were 100% healthy, which I believe he was, he would have still been knocked out. He was fighting a KO artist. Look at the guys fights dating back to his only loss. He beat Cloud and made him quit, he knocked out Dawson and everyone else were ko's and tko's.
Give me a break, there is no general consensus as to how to make a P4P list. Shit, the Klitcko brothers or however you spell there name, they get put on the list? For barely beating bums in a division that is D-E-A-D?
Before the ko Dawson was ranked and Cloud was ranked high enough to get the fight with Stevenson. And when I say ranked I'm talking about divisional rankings. I'm sorry man, but even when it comes to P4P, there ain't no general consensus. Look at how many different people we have in the lists already given. So yeah, based on recent performance I'd say Stevenson should be ranked higher than Pac.
ETA: and why the FUCK is hopkins calling out Floyd when he should be concerned about Stevenson?
ETA 2: Shit look at The Bay Ares list. His number 9 spot is open and he says it could be filled with a light heavy. Stevenson is the #1 ranked light heavy. Give him the spot.
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