Would this work on a Large Scale in Modern Society??

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carl winslow

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#1
Dec 17, 2004
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#1
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/19/national/main2199238.shtml

its based off the "democratic school" model. sudbury valley is the most famous in massachusetts
http://www.sudval.org/

theres a handful of similar schools in cali (play mountain in la)

im fascinated by the idea of self-directed education and think its a much better solution to our education crisis than the whole "waiting for superman" lets pump kids with how to be better test takers approach.


thing is, all these schools always have middle class white kids as the majority of their students. how possible do you think it would be to open one of these types of schools in the hood?

we cant deny how important education is in labeling people and significantly influencing their direction in life, so i think this is something really important to look into. we cant keep letting schools tell black and latino kids that they're failures
 
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carl winslow

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#3
Dec 17, 2004
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theres plenty of high schools that would take them. not only that, many of these types of schools go all the way up to high school so most of these kids stay in these types of schools till theyre 17-18 and would never transfer to a regular public school. would you if at one school you can play video games, sports, music, etc. all day as opposed to memorize boring useless facts??

not only that. since these schools are all about teaching kids to think for themselves, many of them decide not to go to college and many do. the ones that decide college have to take the sat and open up a test prep book and study it (at age 16-17 or so). having never taken a formal class in math or reading or any traditional subject, they simply study the concepts tested on the sat for a few weeks. and guess what?...they end up doing quite well. see they learn math and reading naturally through the years through practical application (cooking, carpentry, etc....card games, even video games which they play at the school) so when theyre exposed to math in a more formal format, they completely understand it beyond just having procedures memorized.

because they have no transcripts of grades or classes theyve taken. they have to schedule personal interviews with admissions deans to prove to them that they are mentally capable to go to college. these students have went on to competitive colleges with no problem and have performed well. what sets them apart from the rest is that they learn by choice not force (like most of us). but more importantly...college or not, they all report to be happy adults in life after school.

they prove that math, reading, and learning are actually quite easy to do when one isnt forced to do it at a certain age. its just human nature
 
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carl winslow

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Dec 17, 2004
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^^^nice...looks like i struck a nerve over in the sports forum huh? its the sicc breh, dont take it so personal

so...democratic schools...can their philosophy be the answer or are they just for middle class hippies? your thoughts..
 
Stealth

Stealth

Join date: May '98
#7
May 8, 2002
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#7
carl winslow said:
^^^nice...looks like i struck a nerve over in the sports forum huh? its the sicc breh, dont take it so personal

so...democratic schools...can their philosophy be the answer or are they just for middle class hippies? your thoughts..
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Middle class hippies.
 
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carl winslow

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#10
Dec 17, 2004
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#10
Stealth said:
Middle class hippies.
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maybe. i dont know. but if we believe that this is only for middle class hippies, what does that say about our perception of lower/working class kids? if the whole point about this school model is to let students explore on their own. with the belief that kids will naturally learn amongst each other the things they need to learn to be HAPPY adults who can THINK FOR THEMSELVES without being told how to think or what to believe......then why not believe that lower/working class kids are fully capable of benefiting from this?

isnt perhaps the problem that these kids are constantly told by society (school) that they are failures...and thus think and act based on that? so if at these schools they are not judged and instead are encouraged to explore whatever they want to explore, wouldn't this do wonders to their self esteem, sense of self efficacy, and desire to learn?


Lamberto Quintero said:
I think it could work for blacks or "Latinos" if the faculty reflected the student demographics. However, if there would be a mostly white faculty teaching, I highly doubt it would work in the hood.
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true. but i do think it'd be good for there to be some white representation too.




read this dudes blog. i think he has it all figured out:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...roduction-new-blog-about-play-curiosity-and-e

more:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn?page=5


if this could turn out to work for minority kids i think it would be revolutionary. i hate all these alternative charter schools that think theyre solving the problem by forcing kids into raising their test scores. our obsession with tests is the problem!!! that and our idea that all kids need to learn certain concepts at certain ages....many of which are not truly relevant to every day life. can't blame kids for hating school. but it really is important we start getting them interested
 
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carl winslow

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#12
Dec 17, 2004
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ive read up and down the issues and suggestions to improve education

this is by far the best idea ive come across

geoffrey canadas harlem children zone is good too...but it has its problems...like a per pupil budget 2 or 3 times the avg public schools...so expanding it would cost A LOT of money...which we know how govt and rich people feel about that

while this "democratic" or "free" school model costs half the avg public school budget...so it would actually save the country money...and more importantly educate children way better than what theyre getting now. should be a no brainer
 
Stealth

Stealth

Join date: May '98
#13
May 8, 2002
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#13
carl winslow said:
maybe. i dont know. but if we believe that this is only for middle class hippies, what does that say about our perception of lower/working class kids? if the whole point about this school model is to let students explore on their own. with the belief that kids will naturally learn amongst each other the things they need to learn to be HAPPY adults who can THINK FOR THEMSELVES without being told how to think or what to believe......then why not believe that lower/working class kids are fully capable of benefiting from this?

isnt perhaps the problem that these kids are constantly told by society (school) that they are failures...and thus think and act based on that? so if at these schools they are not judged and instead are encouraged to explore whatever they want to explore, wouldn't this do wonders to their self esteem, sense of self efficacy, and desire to learn?
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The educational system is royally fucked, but I don't think that turning a school into Lord of the Flies is the way to fix things up. We as a people have recently begun coddling our children, telling them that winning isn't important, giving them high self esteem and overly praising them for their spaghetti noodle pictures, and this type of education is just one step further away from the real world. Learn some hard work and structure, not every child has the drive to educate themselves. Exploring on your own is a little too much, you need guidance. You wouldn't let a kid get on the internet and talk to strangers without guidance. You wouldn't give them a handgun with guidance. You shouldn't dish out knowledge without some type of structure or frame of reference either. This type of education is the type of shit, IMO, that makes America's serial killers and sociopaths.

Not trying to say that this would work for middle class kids and not for lower class people. I'm saying it wouldn't work for anybody on a large scale and its definitely some middle class hippie type bullshit to think up something like this.

I think being a happy adult that thinks for yourself has a lot to do with your upbringing, and the fact that this was an isolated experiment done with supportive parents who provide guidance and structure to their kids outside of the school setting shouldn't be overlooked.

Most schools today, especially inner city elementary schools, don't have an opportunity to educate. They're too busy teaching kids survival skills, breaking up fights, finding out who's being abused, making sure kids are fed, etc., that these kids never have the opportunity to address their higher needs such as education. Until we can take care of basic needs like safety, food, clothing, shelter, etc., people in lower socioeconomic status aren't going to find education as important, because they'll be too busy trying to stay alive.
 
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carl winslow

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#14
Dec 17, 2004
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#14
Stealth said:
The educational system is royally fucked, but I don't think that turning a school into Lord of the Flies is the way to fix things up. We as a people have recently begun coddling our children, telling them that winning isn't important, giving them high self esteem and overly praising them for their spaghetti noodle pictures, and this type of education is just one step further away from the real world. Learn some hard work and structure, not every child has the drive to educate themselves. Exploring on your own is a little too much, you need guidance. You wouldn't let a kid get on the internet and talk to strangers without guidance. You wouldn't give them a handgun with guidance. You shouldn't dish out knowledge without some type of structure or frame of reference either. This type of education is the type of shit, IMO, that makes America's serial killers and sociopaths.

Not trying to say that this would work for middle class kids and not for lower class people. I'm saying it wouldn't work for anybody on a large scale and its definitely some middle class hippie type bullshit to think up something like this.
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i dont know man. you could be right, but i give this education style a lot of credit. ultimately neither of us can really say. but its not a lord of the flies situation. there are adults, there is some type of structure. its mainly that kids arent force fed academic concepts for the sake of "learning". its giving kids much more credit than we have been conditioned to give them, and allows them to learn through other means...like music, art, talking with each other, etc. through all of these things they are learning..but more importantly theyre learning out of intrinsic motivation which is essential. i could go on and on, but if you want to look into this more you can just read up on it. ill just say that it definitely does not create sociopaths. it creates the absolute opposite (ive spoken with a couple alumni of the sudbury valley school, as well as people who have done research there, and though theyre only a few peoples perspectives, at least from them and the literature available that wasnt the idea they gave me).

EDIT: just found this video which kinda reflects what we're talking about. so basically youre oreilly and im the bald dude







Stealth said:
I think being a happy adult that thinks for yourself has a lot to do with your upbringing, andthe fact that this was an isolated experiment done with supportive parents who provide guidance and structure to their kids outside of the school setting shouldn't be overlooked.
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totally. youre right and thats what im most interested in. because the fact is these are all white kids. the brooklyn free school here has more diversity but is still predominantly middle class. the family economic and cultural capital these kids have to support them has to be HUGE factor in making this as successful as it is. but if traditional school as it is isnt work for low SES kids, i wonder how much worse this could be...i think it could even be better. theyre not learning anything anyways. i would like to see an experimental attempt of this with urban minority kids. it would have to be implemented with a lot of additional support and consideration of several variables and could show some success or be a total disaster haha. but isnt school already a total disaster? this may not work on a larger scale full on, but i think we can take a lot of important lessons about the positive affects of trusting kids with autonomy from this philosophy
 
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carl winslow

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#17
Dec 17, 2004
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#17
^^i know man that sucks. not only that, but oreilly quoted abigail thernstrom:



her and her husband apparently hate the school i was taking about. they wrote the pretty famous book "no excuses" which is their solution to education....that shit is so narrow minded and full of flaws its angering to read
 
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