Status of Music

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Roz

Sicc OG
Jul 22, 2009
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#21
No i wasn't being sarcastic. You obviously don't understand what I am saying. I simply stated that Country music is the only genre where using a songwriters is still the norm, I never stated other genres don't use them.

Country music isn't the only genre... it's common in pop music all the time, and people know it... but the image sells it... you used to be able to say the voice sold it... but now everyone uses autotune, to fine tune pitch... so everyone has a perfect tone... Marvin Gaye, and Otis Redding are turning in their graves...
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#22
No i wasn't being sarcastic. You obviously don't understand what I am saying. I simply stated that Country music is the only genre where using a songwriters is still the norm, I never stated other genres don't use them.
I understand just fine. So here's the big shocker for you -- performing songs written by other people is certainly 'the norm' for "urban" artists as much as anyone else. Arguably even more so.

As far as artists writing their own lyrics vs. using songwriters.. I couldn't care less. Some people are great performers, some are great writers, and a few are great at both. If you're good at what you do, you're good at what you do. If there's some unwritten rule that says an artist should write their own lyrics then they should compose their own music and play their own instruments as well.

Music is the result of different degrees of collaboration. Very very very few people are a one man show.
 
Jun 24, 2006
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#25
I understand just fine. So here's the big shocker for you -- performing songs written by other people is certainly 'the norm' for "urban" artists as much as anyone else. Arguably even more so.

As far as artists writing their own lyrics vs. using songwriters.. I couldn't care less. Some people are great performers, some are great writers, and a few are great at both. If you're good at what you do, you're good at what you do. If there's some unwritten rule that says an artist should write their own lyrics then they should compose their own music and play their own instruments as well.

Music is the result of different degrees of collaboration. Very very very few people are a one man show.
Who? I'm just curious. most "urban music is co-written by the artist, I'm curious as to who has an established career without writing or co-writing their own music.
 

Elemenno

F.W.A.H.R.L.D.
Feb 28, 2009
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#27
I pretty much agree with Roz on this subject.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking the music business is somehow not a business.

There may be some company somewhere that records artists at no charge and puts out the music free to the public...but 99.9% of the rest of them want to make a buck. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with using music to make money. It needs to be said.
There's a difference between fair business practices and exploitation.
 
Jun 24, 2006
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#32
So we have one rapper. That's no where near country music. And country doesn't use ghost writers, they are acknowledged for their contributions, where the who purpose of ghost writers is their secrecy
 

Roz

Sicc OG
Jul 22, 2009
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#33
So we have one rapper. That's no where near country music. And country doesn't use ghost writers, they are acknowledged for their contributions, where the who purpose of ghost writers is their secrecy

There's a big difference between country music and hip-hop songwriters though... and that is, that most of the time the country songwriter is also the one that comes up with the basic melody of the song, and sometime even the entire basic track...

Where as in hip-hop the writer/emcee goes off a given piece of production, and then the person paying them... listens to the "guide tracks" and if they like it, they buy the rights... Other notable mentions who use "ghostwriters" are Dr.Dre, Puffy, Snoop Dogg, and Foxy Brown...
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#34
There's a difference between fair business practices and exploitation.
Who should get to decide what fair is? Since when is fairness a component of conducting business? All business is exploitation to one degree or another. Can you say rapper X is being deceived or unjustly exploited when he willingly entered into a contract that may not be in his favor?

Business is as business has always been. I don't hold much sympathy for people who use ignorance as an excuse to finger point blame at someone else and try to push the burden of their own bad decisions onto. You got a shitty deal? The only person responsible for that is the person you see in the mirror.

My point is people chose to participate in something they may or may not even know anything about, then cry & whine when things don't work the way they do in their imaginary version of the music business.

So we have one rapper. That's no where near country music. And country doesn't use ghost writers, they are acknowledged for their contributions, where the who purpose of ghost writers is their secrecy
Why do you think "ghost writers" are a tool left unused by country artists and labels? I guess you're unaware of the fact that some of the biggest country songs have been written by people typically associated with rock.

Let's just make this simple.. The use of "ghost writers" exists in practically every genre of music. Music is 99% of the time a big collaborative effort created by a team of people, packaged up all nice and presented to you by the artist (who represents the image of that product). In the case of rap, it's detrimental to that product and it's image to reveal all the behind the scenes details as it contradicts the fans illusion of artist "credibility". Most major rap artists you can name have performed pieces written by other people.

And to be straight forward with you, who gives a fuck? Is a movie taking advantage of blue screen somehow ruined because some portion of it is artificial? Appreciate the music for what it is just like you should appreciate a good meal and don't worry about how the chef prepared it.

The second how something is made matters more to you then whether or not you like the end result, is the same second you've given up the ability to truly enjoy it.
 

Elemenno

F.W.A.H.R.L.D.
Feb 28, 2009
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#35
Who should get to decide what fair is? Since when is fairness a component of conducting business?
I'm not trying to turn this into a debate about business ethics, but it's sad that people feel that shady business techniques are the only way to become successful just because thats how the next guy did it. Yes its the norm, but no its not the only way. Also, the music business has changed through the years. They use to have a thing called artist development, but now the big labels are only run by lawyers and accountants. Which means if their artist doesn't do a certain amount of numbers within the first quarter they're gone. It doesn't matter if they have artistic potential. This has seriously effected major label music because it forces the artist to try and sound like whats selling so that they don't get dropped. But, like Roz said, with technology is coming a lot more indy artists. And good indy artists. I can't even remember the last CD I enjoyed that was off of a major label, but within the indy circuit I can always find something new and good.
 

Nuttkase

not nolettuce
Jun 5, 2002
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#36
I was about to type a bunch of replies to posts in this thread but then I noticed most of what is in discussion is talking about mainstream music or "big business" music which I could give a fuck less about for the most part.

Carry on.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#38
I'm not trying to turn this into a debate about business ethics, but it's sad that people feel that shady business techniques are the only way to become successful just because thats how the next guy did it. Yes its the norm, but no its not the only way.
The problem is people throwing the shady business label around like it's a hot potato as if the label is doing things behind the artists back. People willingly sign contracts every single day without reading and/or understanding the terms. It doesn't mean the label is shady, it means you're too stupid to get someone to explain it all to you so you know what you're agreeing to.

People do bad business, but they also do good business. Major labels are not evil or the anti-christ or any of that other ridiculous shit people say.

Also, the music business has changed through the years. They use to have a thing called artist development, but now the big labels are only run by lawyers and accountants. Which means if their artist doesn't do a certain amount of numbers within the first quarter they're gone. It doesn't matter if they have artistic potential.
Labels providing artist development was necessary because most of the outlets didn't exist and the artist didn't have a means to really get the growth on their own. Technology has changed that which is why labels have stricter prerequisites and a higher bar set for the legwork a newcomer needs to handle. I agree 100% with it too. If you can do it, you should do it so the experience hopefully makes you more well-rounded.

As far as sales requirements. A business can't sustain itself if it's constantly in the red. It makes no sense what-so-ever for a label to continue investing money into an artist that isn't making it back. Every label has a balance sheet and if you're hurting it, you got to go. I agree with this 100% too.

This has seriously effected major label music because it forces the artist to try and sound like whats selling so that they don't get dropped. But, like Roz said, with technology is coming a lot more indy artists. And good indy artists. I can't even remember the last CD I enjoyed that was off of a major label, but within the indy circuit I can always find something new and good.
If artist X is better off working for an independent label then that's what he should do even though independent labels become more like a major labels little brother every day. If he thinks sales figures and the music business are so evil, or he only cares about the "artistry" then he shouldn't try to be a part of it at all and just post his music for free download from any of the tons of file hosting sites. Artists these days want... no scratch that..expect all the perks of being a major artist, but without any of the strings or sacrifices. These cats actually believe they deserve, are entitled to, and owed. And that's why so many of them fail.

I don't come across much stand-out talent and creativity when considering all the artists and music I come into contact with regardless of what labels (if any) they're associated with. That's one of the problems with technology. It's made people who don't have any real musical ability believe they're just what the music business and fans need when in truth it's exactly the opposite.

One thing point I want to make is that major labels don't and can't force you to buy anything. They can't force music down your throat. You're the one (meaning the consumer) that decides how and what you spend your money on. If "you" don't like all the cookie-cutter pop bullshit then don't buy into it.
 

Elemenno

F.W.A.H.R.L.D.
Feb 28, 2009
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#39
Major labels are not evil or the anti-christ or any of that other ridiculous shit people say.
I hope you don't think thats what I'm trying to say. The world is way more complex than "good and evil" or "right or wrong". Thats why I was trying to avoid the ethical debate. It is way too complicated. But on a personal level i don't agree with some of your thoughts on whats ethical, but I'll leave it at that.

Labels providing artist development was necessary because most of the outlets didn't exist and the artist didn't have a means to really get the growth on their own. Technology has changed that which is why labels have stricter prerequisites and a higher bar set for the legwork a newcomer needs to handle. I agree 100% with it too.
So you have no problem with music today. fair enough. Personally I feel the lack of artist development has had a severe impact on the quality of the music these companies have been putting out. In theory letting them grow on there own and then picking them at their peak sounds good, but the issue is the extra pressure it puts on the artists to conform to make those sales by the first quarter. I hear it all the time when an independent artist signs to a major label release. There major label releases are generally far more inferior.