Some Real Scientists Reject Evolution

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HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#1
Some Real Scientists Reject Evolution

Do any scientists with Ph.D. degrees reject the theory of evolution? Yes, they do!

The Credential Attack
You may have noticed that evolutionists often attack the scientific
credentials of any scientist who rejects the theory of evolution. They have to do this because:

There is so little scientific evidence that supports evolution.
What little evidence they have is highly questionable.
Since they can’t refute the scientific evidence, they try to refute the scientist.

The more time we spend defending ourselves, the less time we have to present factual data about the unscientific notions upon which the theory of evolution is based. That’s why we tend to ignore the personal attacks and focus on science.

Because we do this, our critics naturally claim that we don’t defend the credentials of scientists who reject the theory of evolution because we can’t. Since the charge is repeatedly made that all “real scientists” accept the theory of evolution, we will address that charge this month.

Past Scientists

There is no question that some of the most famous scientists of all times believed in creation. Ann Lamont has written a book entitled 21 Great Scientists Who Believed The Bible. She devotes chapters to Kepler, Boyle, Newton, Linnaeus, Euler, Faraday, Babbage, Joule, Pasteur, Kelvin, Maxwell, and Werner von Braun. These men weren’t dummies, and they believed in creation.

Evolutionists, of course, will argue that these great scientists lived before Darwin, and weren’t acquainted with the theory of evolution or modern scientific discoveries. While that may be true of some, it certainly isn’t true of Werner von Braun (1912 - 1977). Furthermore, their argument is based on the false premise that the evidence for the theory of evolution is stronger today than it was in the sixteenth through twentieth centuries. In reality, it was easier to believe in the theory of evolution when the fossil record was much less complete, before spontaneous generation of life was disproved, before genetics and molecular biology were understood as well as they are today.

Present Scientists

There are thousands of modern scientists who reject evolution. There is a partial list of them at http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/home.html. But evolutionists apparently believe that any modern scientist who rejects evolution has merely been brainwashed by Christian doctrine. For example, consider this email we received from “P”.


Subject: "Science is against the theory of evolution."
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:25:52 -0400
From: P
To: [email protected]


Dear Do-While Jones

I was interested to discover your web site at http://www.ScienceAgainstEvolution.org

You say: "The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. It is believed DESPITE scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution."

According to http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm, 95% of scientists (and over 98% of "life and earth scientists") in the US support the basic tenants of evolution. (A minority, like biochemist Michael Behe, claim there is evidence of an outside "designer").

You say: "We are a secular, non-profit corporation, not associated with any church. If you want answers about religious questions, ask a religious organization." But can you name one scientist who (a) is not a "Bible Literalist" and who (b) rejects evolution and supports the "young earth" hypothesis?

I look forward to hearing from you.

P

We visited the web site he referenced. It said,

According to Newsweek in 1987, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." That would make the support for creation science among those branches of science who deal with the earth and its life forms at about 0.14%. [italics and ellipsis used as on their web page]

So, even 14 years ago, Newsweek reported that there were 700 “real” earth and life scientists who rejected the theory of evolution. We will address the criteria for “respectable academic credentials” in a moment, but first we want to examine some data from that web page.

The web page presents two tables of data divided into rows representing race, sex, education, and income, etc.. One table contains data from 1991-the other from 1997. Unfortunately, the two tables didn’t use the same criteria for separating the data into rows, so it is difficult to compare them. In fact, the only common row is “Everyone.” The 1991 data showed 47% of all adults believed in creation, 40% believed in theistic evolution, and 9% believed in evolution. That only adds up to 96%, so presumably 4% had no opinion or did not respond. Then the web page said,

1997-NOV data is little changed. Note the massive differences between the beliefs of the general population and of scientists:

Group Creation Theistic Evolution Evolution
Everyone 44% 39% 10%
Scientists 5% 40% 55%

They want you to focus on the 5% versus 44%. But suppose it is really true (as Newsweek said) that in 1987 only 0.14% of all scientists believed in creation, and 10 years later 5% believed in creation (as this survey says). If the numbers given on that web page are correct, the number of scientists who believe in creation increased from 700 in 1987 to 24,990 in 1997!

Of course, we know we are comparing apples and oranges because the surveys probably used different definitions of “scientists.” We don’t know how the surveys were conducted, or how accurate they are. We are just reporting (not defending) numbers produced by our critics.

We don’t have any numerical data to support our belief that more and more scientists are rejecting the theory of evolution, but we think there is evidence that the trend is real. For example, we are seeing more stories about high school science teachers who are getting in trouble for presenting all the evidence for and against evolution in the classroom. We just received an invitation to subscribe to WorldNet. Their advertisement said, in part,


The July edition of WorldNet-WorldNetDaily.com's monthly print magazine-consists of a breathtaking investigative report on the debate between evolutionists and creationists.

Titled "EVOLUTION: The basis of all life, or a fairy tale for scientists who reject God?" -- this issue is perhaps the clearest, most concise, and ultimately most devastating report available on the all-important issue of the origins of life.

Ironically, while the almost sacrosanct theory of evolution is coming under spectacular scientific assault from every direction, at the same time its adherents have ushered in a new censorship movement in America.

* Roger DeHart, a Washington high school teacher, had been teaching evolution to his 9th- and 10th-grade students for 10 years in the Burlington-Edison School District when a student filed a complaint against him for criticizing Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. He was prohibited from teaching biology after that.

* Community college instructor Kevin Haley in Oregon was also condemned by other faculty for questioning evolution.

* Minnesota high school science teacher Rod LeVake was banned from teaching biology due to his criticism of Darwinism.


We believe that there would not be so much opposition to science teachers who take a balanced approach to teaching evolution if there were not so many science teachers who are presenting scientific arguments against evolution.

We get criticized for using fairly tale analogies, but we can’t help a similarity to the story of The Emperor’s New Clothes. Wise people knew the emperor was naked, but they were afraid to say so because they were afraid to appear to be fools. When one little boy blurted out the truth, then other people had the courage to agree. We believe that there are many other scientists like DeHart, Haley, and LeVake who realize the inadequacy of the theory of evolution to explain the origin of life, and are just now willing to state what they know to be true because other scientists have broken the ice by saying that the emperor has no clothes.

Who Are Real Scientists?
But, some might argue, DeHart, Haley, and LeVake aren’t really scientists. They are just high school science teachers.

If high school science teachers aren’t really scientists, then we have to accept the fact that a large segment of the general public (specifically, people who have high school diplomas and no higher education) were taught everything they know about science from unqualified non-scientists. This line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that many people have been taught that evolution is true by non-scientists who don’t know what they are talking about.

We consider science teachers to be real scientists. We think engineers are real scientists. We don’t limit the term “scientist” to professors of evolutionary biology.

In 1999, Dr. Stephen Taylor wrote,

The Creation Research Society currently has a membership of 650 scientists, each one holding a Master’s degree or above in a recognized field of science. In a recent article Dr. Russell Humphreys, physicist at Sandia National Laboratories, New Mexico, estimates that there are around 10,000 practicing professional scientists in the USA alone who openly believe in a six-day creation.

1

When asked to name a “real modern scientist” who believes in creation, we might start with Henry Morris. Of course, evolutionists will immediately object, claiming he isn’t a real scientist. Why? Because he believes in creation. From an evolutionist’s point of view, anyone who believes in creation can’t be a real scientist. Therefore, scientists like Henry Morris, John Morris, Larry Vardiman, Steve Austin, and Duane Gish can be discounted immediately because they work for the Institute for Creation Research. Likewise, evolutionists won’t acknowledge Michael Behe, Andrew Snelling, Donald deYoung, and Kurt Wise, regardless of their academic credentials, because their creationist leanings are well-known.

This is another example of how evolutionists use circular reasoning. Circular logic concludes that no “real scientist” rejects evolution because the very fact that he rejects evolution means he isn’t a “real scientist”.

My late friend Jim Rieger used this method to distinguish a scientist from an engineer:


When a scientist makes a discovery, he immediately thinks, “This is an amazing new discovery. Where should I publish it?” When an engineer makes a discovery, he immediately thinks, “This is an amazing new discovery. How can I make a buck with it?”



Engineers are scientists who use scientific knowledge to design products (or invent procedures) that are commercially profitable. Scientists may speculate about how planets are formed, but not one of them has ever actually made a planet. On the other hand, when engineers claim they know to how to build a space probe that can reach those planets, they actually have to build it. This means that engineers tend to be brought back to reality more often than college professors.

ALL my friends with Ph.D. degrees who are college professors believe in evolution. NONE of my friends with Ph.D. degrees who work in the defense industry believe in evolution. When I mentioned this in a private email to an evolutionist, he replied:


This is known in the talk.origins newsgroup as the Salem hypothesis, namely the observation that creationists who claim to have academic credentials generally turn out to be engineers rather than scientists. There are a number of theories to explain this tendency, of which yours is one. One could also argue that engineers are more inclined to accept black-and-white rule-based explanations whereas scientists are more likely to think abstractly about the underlying mechanisms. Whatever the reason, it is an interesting trend. [emphasis supplied]

Notice that if one is an engineer, he only “claim to have academic credentials,” and isn’t really a scientist, in the words of that evolutionist. In response to his next-to-last sentence, one could argue that engineers are more inclined to accept only actual experimental results, whereas scientists are more likely to accept fanciful theories (if told skillfully enough).

Why Does it Matter?

Why does it matter who is a scientist and who isn’t? Because our society has been conditioned to accept the notion that any sentence that begins, “Scientists say …” is undeniably true. The general public has been told that scientists are unbiased, objective individuals who are never wrong. If you can’t trust what scientists say, what can you trust?

Evolutionists weren’t too worried when scientists said evolution was true and preachers said it wasn’t. But now that thousands of scientists (not counting engineers and high school science teachers) are saying publicly that evolution isn’t true, that’s a big problem for evolutionists. Scientists have much more credibility (in their opinion) than mere preachers do. The general public might believe what scientists say. Therefore, the evolutionists have to convince the public that the scientists who reject evolution aren’t really scientists-they are just high school science teachers, engineers, or skillful debaters posing as scientists.

Why 50 Scientists Reject Evolution

We would like to recommend the book In Six Days (why 50 scientists choose to believe in creation) edited by John F. Ashton. It is a collection of fifty essays, each written by a different scientist. Each author’s (impressive) academic credentials are listed at the beginning of his or her essay. They span a wide variety of academic disciplines. They aren’t all engineers! (But some are.)

The 50 essays are, on average, seven pages long. Each one gives the author’s reason for believing in the Biblical creation story rather than the theory of evolution. We have to give this book a (Cr+) rating for “strong Christian content”, but nearly every essay has strong scientific arguments for creation and/or against evolution.

We should have compiled a matrix-with 50 rows (one for each scientist) and one column for each scientific argument used-to tabulate which arguments were used by which scientists. This would have shown which arguments are most convincing to most scientists.

Although we failed to count the number of times every argument was used, we did notice that the second law of thermodynamics was mentioned by seven of the fifty scientists. Specifically, they were Jeremy Walter and Stanley Mumma (two engineers), Larry Vardiman and Don deYoung (two physicists), Ker Thompson and John Baumgardner (two geophysicists, but Baumgardner also has B.S. and M.S. degrees in electrical engineering as well as his M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Geophysics and Space Physics), and Geoff Downes (forestry research, but he learned about thermodynamics in a physical chemistry class).

We, too, believe the second law of thermodynamics is one of the most powerful arguments against evolution. We have not used it on our web site because we haven’t found a way to explain it in a way that the general public can understand. These seven men give it a valiant try, and nearly succeed.

The problem is that thermodynamics is a one-semester mechanical engineering course that mechanical and electrical engineering students are generally required to take to graduate. Physics majors probably have to take it, too. It is a course that students usually try to put off until their junior or senior years because it is a tough course, which many students flunk.

To explain why the second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution, one must rely on concepts appreciated only by people who have received a passing grade in thermodynamics. People who don’t understand thermodynamics make stupid counter-arguments about snowflakes or open systems.

Perhaps someday we will try to explain why the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Meanwhile, the best we can do is recommend you read the essays in In Six Days written by the seven scientists mentioned above.

Science and Religion
Evolutionists can’t seem to separate science from religion. They sometimes imply (or even state outright) that the scientists who reject evolution do so because religious brainwashing has prevented them from being able to think rationally. Remember, the email from “P” challenged us,


But can you name one scientist who (a) is not a "Bible Literalist" and who (b) rejects evolution and supports the "young earth" hypothesis?

What has religion got to do with science? We don’t even ask our members what their religious beliefs are, let alone snoop into the religious beliefs of scientists we only know by reputation. However, we are quite confident that Harun Yahya isn’t a “Bible Literalist.” The last two chapters of his excellent 20-chapter book, Evolution Deceit, urge the reader to accept the Islamic faith. Therefore, he can’t be a Bible Literalist, but that is beside the point.

We certainly agree that most of the scientists who reject evolution believe the Bible, but it is unclear which is the cause and which is the effect. Do scientists reject evolution because they believe the Bible, or do they believe the Bible because they reject evolution? (On the other side of the coin, most atheists are evolutionists. Are they evolutionists because they are atheists? or are they atheists because they are evolutionists?)

Several of the scientists who wrote chapters for In Six Days say they were once atheistic evolutionists who didn’t accept Christianity and creation until after they realized that the theory of evolution is scientifically bankrupt. Their rejection of evolution did not come from some Christian brainwashing which prevented them from thinking rationally. They rejected the theory because science evidence is overwhelmingly against evolution.

We try as hard as we can to examine evolution from the point of view that it is a scientific theory, and examine it as critically as one might examine cold fusion or global warming. But whenever we do, an evolutionist tries to drag religion into the discussion, as “P” did in his email.

In this essay we have departed somewhat from our usual approach by addressing the academic credentials and religious beliefs of scientists who reject evolution. But we want to end with our usual appeal. We don’t want you to let personalities or religious arguments affect your decision. We want you to evaluate the theory of evolution itself-not the people who believe in it, or the reason people believe in it. We want you to look at the theory of evolution from a purely scientific viewpoint. When you do, we think you will find that science is against evolution.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v5i10f.htm
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#3
Every time you see the Second law being mentioned as a proof against evolution you should know you're dealing with people who have zero understanding of science

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html

Anyway, these stats are another perfect example of creationists tactics - shamelessly lie and misinterpret data in order to get the ignorant believe you

Those 700 in 1987 were YEC supporters, the 40% Theistic Evolution supporters are something different and most of them were engineers, inorganic chemists or something else not directly related to evolution and biology

The only credible poll will be to sort scientists into categories and subcategories - biologists (MDs and PhDs), chemists, geologists, physicists, atmospheric sciences, etc.

The only way you can claim scientists reject evolution is when a sufficient number of respectable biologists hold such views. I am aware of only one theistic evolutionist - Francis Collins and it should be noted that THEISTIC EVOLUTIONISTS SUPPORT EVOLUTION (although they're guilty in not being good scientists)

Another very important point - you don't need to be a real scientist to posses a degree or even do research. In fact, most of those 480,00 people are really poor scientists who don't understand the scientific method and the philosophy of science (because these are things sadly missing from the curriculum)

When I say respectable biologist I mean somebody who's a faculty member at MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, Columbia, Yale and other institutions in that category. Liberty university doesn't count. You will be very pressed to find even a small number of theistic evolutionists in those institutions


Some things that really pissed me off:

From an evolutionist’s point of view, anyone who believes in creation can’t be a real scientist.
Wrong. From scientific point of view, not evolutionary. The minute you include God in your thinking, you violate the scientific principle. It's not because it's God or it's against evolution, it is because it is violating the fundamental principle of methodological naturalism science is based on

Because our society has been conditioned to accept the notion that any sentence that begins, “Scientists say …” is undeniably true.
Scientists do make mistakes, but they tend to correct them much more often than other people

The important thing is that the scientific method is the best way humanity has ever devised to find objective truths and it works. This is why nobody is more trustworthy than scientists

It would very good if society really believed what scientists are saying, but my observations point towards the opposite

Evolutionists weren’t too worried when scientists said evolution was true and preachers said it wasn’t. But now that thousands of scientists (not counting engineers and high school science teachers) are saying publicly that evolution isn’t true, that’s a big problem for evolutionists.
Name these scientists, I have yet to see them
 
Aug 6, 2006
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#4
ThaG said:
Every time you see the Second law being mentioned as a proof against evolution you should know you're dealing with people who have zero understanding of science

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html

Anyway, these stats are another perfect example of creationists tactics - shamelessly lie and misinterpret data in order to get the ignorant believe you
So you reject the credentials of a non-biologist who rejects evolution, however, when a non-biologist(chemist) makes an argument refuting the premise of a particular rebuttal, in the form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, you blindly accept it? I see what kind of circular reasoning this is.. The article seems a bit deceptive anyhow and tries to lead the reader into believing that there in no correlation between disorder and entropy and emphasizes how they are two separate entities, which goes with out saying and is simply a matter of nomenclature. But to imply that there's no correlation is absurd. There's always two sides to an argument anyways..

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/22951.html

ThaG said:
Those 700 in 1987 were YEC supporters, the 40% Theistic Evolution supporters are something different and most of them were engineers, inorganic chemists or something else not directly related to evolution and biology
Ad hominems to be disregarded..

ThaG said:
The only credible poll will be to sort scientists into categories and subcategories - biologists (MDs and PhDs), chemists, geologists, physicists, atmospheric sciences, etc.
Reductionist view.. If it weren't for these other sciences, neither the theory of evolution or biology would exist.

ThaG said:
The only way you can claim scientists reject evolution is when a sufficient number of respectable biologists hold such views. I am aware of only one theistic evolutionist - Francis Collins and it should be noted that THEISTIC EVOLUTIONISTS SUPPORT EVOLUTION (although they're guilty in not being good scientists)
Why do you keep using "scientist" and "biologist" interchangeably when you know that if an astrophysicist were to dispute evolution you'd only resort to more ad hominems and criticize his/her credentials?

ThaG said:
Another very important point - you don't need to be a real scientist to posses a degree or even do research. In fact, most of those 480,00 people are really poor scientists who don't understand the scientific method and the philosophy of science (because these are things sadly missing from the curriculum)
Your consistent personal attacks are futile given the fact that these arguments can be made against you and your beliefs also.. Yet another logical fallacy that should be disregarded.

ThaG said:
When I say respectable biologist I mean somebody who's a faculty member at MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, Columbia, Yale and other institutions in that category. Liberty university doesn't count. You will be very pressed to find even a small number of theistic evolutionists in those institutions
Your superficial requirements have no bearing on any universal truths. If this is what you require and who you put religious-like faith in, so be it. However, we are all people with our own reason, able to evaluate the evidence for our selves, if this isn't the case then science is nothing more than sugar-coated religion with scientists being the "gods" that we all must answer to, to receive any kind of perspective(this of course is not true). I see that you have no individuality G.


ThaG said:
Some things that really pissed me off:



Wrong. From scientific point of view, not evolutionary. The minute you include God in your thinking, you violate the scientific principle. It's not because it's God or it's against evolution, it is because it is violating the fundamental principle of methodological naturalism science is based on
Wrong. From an an evolutionist's point of view.. Please do not contradict your self as it makes you seem foolish. On one side you argue that it is important to differentiate between Geologists, physicists, and biologists etc, when assessing the reliability of those who make claims pertaining to whether or not they accept or do not accept evolution, now you're covering your tracks by suggesting that all scientists believe in it anyways, and if they do not then they aren't a scientist.. How much is this worth though if non-biologists don't count, and since when did evolution follow every step of the scientific method? It fails the Time-order relationship, observation, and Falsifiability actually..

ThaG said:
Scientists do make mistakes, but they tend to correct them much more often than other people

The important thing is that the scientific method is the best way humanity has ever devised to find objective truths and it works. This is why nobody is more trustworthy than scientists

Too bad evolution doesn't utilize the entire method.. I agree, scientists are very trustworthy, a lot more so than evolutionists.

ThaG said:
It would very good if society really believed what scientists are saying, but my observations point towards the opposite

^Most people do accept most concepts in biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, geology, etc.. The problem here is the theory of evolution, not scientists.

ThaG said:
Name these scientists, I have yet to see them
Again, why are you concerned with "scientists" when according to you, biologists are the only ones that matter?
 

ThaG

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ParkBoyz, I think I've told you many times not to post things that make you look like a complete idiot and reveal how little you understand science

Sorry for the harsh words, but I am not going to sugar coat anything

You'll get a detailed response in a few minutes
 
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#7
ThaG said:
ParkBoyz, I think I've told you many times not to post things that make you look like a complete idiot and reveal how little you understand science


Sorry for the harsh words, but I am not going to sugar coat anything
You've already demonstrated your 1 dimensional approach to science.. Don't worry about any "harsh words", they lack substance coming from a delusional wretch who makes baseless claims and continuously uses ad hominems due to his limited rhetorical skills and comprehension. What ever you feel makes me look like an "idiot" most likely and inversely is the same thing that actually makes you one.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
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#8
ParkBoyz said:
So you reject the credentials of a non-biologist who rejects evolution, however, when a non-biologist(chemist) makes an argument refuting the premise of a particular rebuttal, in the form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, you blindly accept it? I see what kind of circular reasoning this is.. The article seems a bit deceptive anyhow and tries to lead the reader into believing that there in no correlation between disorder and entropy and emphasizes how they are two separate entities, which goes with out saying and is simply a matter of nomenclature. But to imply that there's no correlation is absurd. There's always two sides to an argument anyways..

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/22951.html
First of all, do you realize the difference between a closed system and an opened system. I don't know if you have ever taken any thermodynamics/physical chemistry course, if you had you would probably know it, same with all creationists that use the argument.

It is true that the Second law says that things go from ordered to less ordered condition. However, this is true only for a closed system. The Earth is not a closed system because we have a huge energy source - The Sun.

To say that the second law prohibits evolution means that you don't understand both thermodynamics and biology


Ad hominems to be disregarded..
I don't think you got the point. I said that 700 YEC supporters were found in the 1987 survey and they were compared to the 40% theistic evolutionists, these are two completely different things, but the conclusion was that half of scientists reject evolution


Reductionist view.. If it weren't for these other sciences, neither the theory of evolution or biology would exist.
It's not a reductionist view. You will often hear that to be a mathematician you need to know math; to be a physicists you need to know physics and math; to be a chemist you need to know physics, math and chemistry; to be a biologist you need to know biology, a lot of chemistry, some physics and in these days, more and more math and informatics.

The result is that the typical non-biology scientist (excluding some organic chemists) doesn't know more about biology than the average person on the street because he never studied it beyond the level ordinary people study it

He is not qualified to dispute the central theory of biology, just as I am not qualified to tell mathematicians how to prove their theorems

I know the value of expertise in the eyes of people has dramatically decreased, but try to understand that you need to know something about the subject to be able to provide credible opinions


Why do you keep using "scientist" and "biologist" interchangeably when you know that if an astrophysicist were to dispute evolution you'd only resort to more ad hominems and criticize his/her credentials?
I don't use "scientists" and "biologist" interchangeably; or you try to imply a biologists is not a scientist?...

The part of the scientific community that is qualified to give opinion on evolution are biologists


Your consistent personal attacks are futile given the fact that these arguments can be made against you and your beliefs also.. Yet another logical fallacy that should be disregarded.
These are not personal attacks. 99% of scientists don't know anything about philosophy of science and this a very very sad omission from the curriculum since it is crucial to understand the fundamental principle of the scientific method. Also, it is a fact that most scientists are not good scientists (you haven't had as much contact with real scientists and with students in science majors as I have had so you have to trust me about that). Since the curriculum usually does not emphasize enough on understanding the scientific method, the only way you can really learn how to do good science is if your PhD advisor is a good scientist and educator. These advisors are few and they tend to be the best scientists in the best universities, with some exceptions. A Nobel prize is as much the result of having the luck to be at the right place at the right time as the result of your ability to do good science


Your superficial requirements have no bearing on any universal truths. If this is what you require and who you put religious-like faith in, so be it. However, we are all people with our own reason, able to evaluate the evidence for our selves, if this isn't the case then science is nothing more than sugar-coated religion with scientists being the "gods" that we all must answer to, to receive any kind of perspective(this of course is not true). I see that you have no individuality G.
See above



Wrong. From an an evolutionist's point of view.. Please do not contradict your self as it makes you seem foolish. On one side you argue that it is important to differentiate between Geologists, physicists, and biologists etc, when assessing the reliability of those who make claims pertaining to whether or not they accept or do not accept evolution, now you're covering your tracks by suggesting that all scientists believe in it anyways, and if they do not then they aren't a scientist.. How much is this worth though if non-biologists don't count, and since when did evolution follow every step of the scientific method? It fails the Time-order relationship, observation, and Falsifiability actually..
I told you something about the scientific method. There is no place for supernatural explanations in the scientific method. If you invoke the supernatural, you are a poor scientist. This is not religion, no matter how hard you try to make it look so.

BTW this is the second time you imply biologists are not scientists...



Too bad evolution doesn't utilize the entire method.. I agree, scientists are very trustworthy, a lot more so than evolutionists.
Evolution doesn't utilize anything, evolution is a process that exists independent of your misunderstanding of it and misuse of terms



^Most people do accept most concepts in biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, geology, etc.. The problem here is the theory of evolution, not scientists.
Few concepts in other sciences have such impact on people's thinking and in the same time are not too abstract to be understood by the ordinary person. Modern physics undermines religion just as much as biology but it is too complex for people to understand it so it doesn't get so much attention.

The problem is not the theory of evolution, it is people's low intelligence and education and the closely related to them religion.

I already mentioned that expertise doesn't really mean much these days. People who have absolutely no understanding of science claim to know better than scientists who have spent their whole life studying it (you are one of these people).

Again, why are you concerned with "scientists" when according to you, biologists are the only ones that matter?
see above
 
Aug 26, 2002
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#9
I already mentioned that expertise doesn't really mean much these days. People who have absolutely no understanding of science claim to know better than scientists who have spent their whole life studying it (you are one of these people).

Nothing more needs to be said.

5000
 
Aug 6, 2006
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ThaG said:
First of all, do you realize the difference between a closed system and an opened system. I don't know if you have ever taken any thermodynamics/physical chemistry course, if you had you would probably know it, same with all creationists that use the argument.

It is true that the Second law says that things go from ordered to less ordered condition. However, this is true only for a closed system. The Earth is not a closed system because we have a huge energy source - The Sun.

To say that the second law prohibits evolution means that you don't understand both thermodynamics and biology
Judging from the condescending tone of your reply I'd assume that this is a rhetorical question consisting of preconceived and misguided notions. Most of this post doesn't even deserve a reply but I'll take a shot at your nonsense..

1. Who says that I didn't know it, all indications are that I did and I'll explain why this exposes the fact that you are simply un-attentive to the point of nearly seeming ineducable..

2. Redundant... No one stated that the earth wasn't an open system at all, to the contrary this is common knowledge..

3. Actually you accused me of something that I didn't say. If you indeed had an actively working left-brain, you'd of noticed that I stated to you simply that the article you provided sugar-coated language in order to deceptively create a vision of some kind of dichotomy between disorder and entropy, then I mentioned to you that there is always two sides(interpretations) to an argument and provided a link, in this link it makes clear mention that the earth is an open system due to the energy of the Sun, but the argument was never made that the earth is a closed system(the argument is elaborated on in the link), that is a horrible Straw man and extremely incompetent to say the least...

I don't think you got the point. I said that 700 YEC supporters were found in the 1987 survey and they were compared to the 40% theistic evolutionists, these are two completely different things, but the conclusion was that half of scientists reject evolution
No, I don't think you understand what an Ad Hominem is.. You're criticizing them instead of the content of their claims.


It's not a reductionist view. You will often hear that to be a mathematician you need to know math; to be a physicists you need to know physics and math; to be a chemist you need to know physics, math and chemistry; to be a biologist you need to know biology, a lot of chemistry, some physics and in these days, more and more math and informatics.

The result is that the typical non-biology scientist (excluding some organic chemists) doesn't know more about biology than the average person on the street because he never studied it beyond the level ordinary people study it

He is not qualified to dispute the central theory of biology, just as I am not qualified to tell mathematicians how to prove their theorems

I know the value of expertise in the eyes of people has dramatically decreased, but try to understand that you need to know something about the subject to be able to provide credible opinions
It is a reductionist view because now you resort to the exact opposite of what you were doing before. The truth assertion of a claim is not dependent on the credibility of the source. Believe it or not, your logic seems reasonable but is flawed, this is called appealing to authority. For one, if we're debating about the validity of some new found mathematical theorem, then of course by all probability the Mathematician more than likely knows more about the methods involved and will most likely be able to solve the problem more efficiently, but the fact that he/she is fallible opens them up to criticism and by all means, this criticism is valid unless proven otherwise.

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter is objectionable.

On the other hand, there is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true, in contrast to claiming that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism: It can be true, the truth can merely not be proven, or made probable by attributing it to the authority, and the assumption that the assertion was true might be subject to criticism and turn out to have been wrong actually. If a criticism appears that contradicts the authority's statement, then merely the fact that the statement originated from the authority is not an argument for ignoring the criticism.
^^Learn about it..


I don't use "scientists" and "biologist" interchangeably; or you try to imply a biologists is not a scientist?...
^Straw Man.. I explained my position on that already, no need for repetition.

The part of the scientific community that is qualified to give opinion on evolution are biologists
^^This is a fallacy, See above..


These are not personal attacks. 99% of scientists don't know anything about philosophy of science and this a very very sad omission from the curriculum since it is crucial to understand the fundamental principle of the scientific method. Also, it is a fact that most scientists are not good scientists (you haven't had as much contact with real scientists and with students in science majors as I have had so you have to trust me about that). Since the curriculum usually does not emphasize enough on understanding the scientific method, the only way you can really learn how to do good science is if your PhD advisor is a good scientist and educator. These advisors are few and they tend to be the best scientists in the best universities, with some exceptions. A Nobel prize is as much the result of having the luck to be at the right place at the right time as the result of your ability to do good science
I really am tired of pointing out all of these errors in logic that you make, it is genuinely incredible that you continue to do so even when they are pointed out to you. To limit repetition I will again direct you above.



See above
Actually my point still stands..



I told you something about the scientific method. There is no place for supernatural explanations in the scientific method. If you invoke the supernatural, you are a poor scientist. This is not religion, no matter how hard you try to make it look so.
Red herring..

BTW this is the second time you imply biologists are not scientists...
Another Straw Man, it is a shame that you were not able to go over the semantics of what was being argued.

Again:

Me said:
On one side you argue that it is important to differentiate between Geologists, physicists, and biologists etc, when assessing the reliability of those who make claims pertaining to whether or not they accept or do not accept evolution, now you're covering your tracks by suggesting that all scientists believe in it anyways, and if they do not then they aren't a scientist.. How much is this worth though if non-biologists don't count(?)


Evolution doesn't utilize anything, evolution is a process that exists independent of your misunderstanding of it and misuse of terms

^^Double talk, evasion, and unsubstantiated claim/personal attack. You didn't even address what was said, lol. Pathetic..


Few concepts in other sciences have such impact on people's thinking and in the same time are not too abstract to be understood by the ordinary person. Modern physics undermines religion just as much as biology but it is too complex for people to understand it so it doesn't get so much attention.
Modern physics in no way undermines theism as far as I know, maybe you'd like to enlighten us on where you're getting these absurd claims from? What aspect or law of physics contradicts the universal negative of a supreme God? Also I thought the reason that people don't accept evolution is because it's much too complex? I know that it's a cop-out argument but I felt like entertaining it.:cool:

The problem is not the theory of evolution, it is people's low intelligence and education and the closely related to them religion.
No, actually the problem is the theory of evolution since I couldn't bring myself to categorize the majority of people abroad as unintelligent, maybe you could, but this merely reflects your vile nature under whatever false delusions you may suffer from.. You may in fact have a disease..

I already mentioned that expertise doesn't really mean much these days. People who have absolutely no understanding of science claim to know better than scientists who have spent their whole life studying it (you are one of these people).
Actually I never claimed to "know better", I always state specifically that I simply don't take too many things at face value, especially far-fetched claims and irrational theories that dwell at least in large part, in the realm of speculation(in other words, I simply don't believe them[evolutionists]). You are a liar G.. Also, I am forced again to direct you above in order to avoid repetition as your fallacies are endless..


see above
Point/question still stands..
 

ThaG

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#11
ParkBoyz said:
Judging from the condescending tone of your reply I'd assume that this is a rhetorical question consisting of preconceived and misguided notions. Most of this post doesn't even deserve a reply but I'll take a shot at your nonsense..

1. Who says that I didn't know it, all indications are that I did and I'll explain why this exposes the fact that you are simply un-attentive to the point of nearly seeming ineducable..

2. Redundant... No one stated that the earth wasn't an open system at all, to the contrary this is common knowledge..

3. Actually you accused me of something that I didn't say. If you indeed had an actively working left-brain, you'd of noticed that I stated to you simply that the article you provided sugar-coated language in order to deceptively create a vision of some kind of dichotomy between disorder and entropy, then I mentioned to you that there is always two sides(interpretations) to an argument and provided a link, in this link it makes clear mention that the earth is an open system due to the energy of the Sun, but the argument was never made that the earth is a closed system(the argument is elaborated on in the link), that is a horrible Straw man and extremely incompetent to say the least...
ParkBoyz, you have used exactly the same argument (2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution) in the past

Do you still think the same or not?

Simple question? The article definitely says so?

Another simple question; have you ever taken college level physics and thermodynamics?

Yes or No?

No, I don't think you understand what an Ad Hominem is.. You're criticizing them instead of the content of their claims.
I don't think you're reading and understanding what I'm posting, your whole post is filled with empty words and absolutely no arguments



It is a reductionist view because now you resort to the exact opposite of what you were doing before. The truth assertion of a claim is not dependent on the credibility of the source. Believe it or not, your logic seems reasonable but is flawed, this is called appealing to authority. For one, if we're debating about the validity of some new found mathematical theorem, then of course by all probability the Mathematician more than likely knows more about the methods involved and will most likely be able to solve the problem more efficiently, but the fact that he/she is fallible opens them up to criticism and by all means, this criticism is valid unless proven otherwise.
How are you going to criticize something that you don't even understand what it's about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_theorem

This is opened to criticism according to your own words, I want to see you criticizing it...
 

ThaG

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#12
^Straw Man.. I explained my position on that already, no need for repetition.

^^This is a fallacy, See above..
it's not a fallacy, it is you being a dumbfuck and not listening


I really am tired of pointing out all of these errors in logic that you make, it is genuinely incredible that you continue to do so even when they are pointed out to you. To limit repetition I will again direct you above.
are you going to comment on what I'm saying or you'll keep typing without saying anything?


Actually my point still stands..
Actually your point was based on misunderstanding and misrepresenting of what I say but you refuse to realize it




Red herring..
I told you something about the scientific method. There is no place for supernatural explanations in the scientific method. If you invoke the supernatural, you are a poor scientist. This is not religion, no matter how hard you try to make it look so.

this is what every scientist will tell you, yet you refuse to listen and understand

so much worse for you, I can't help you





^^Double talk, evasion, and unsubstantiated claim/personal attack. You didn't even address what was said, lol. Pathetic..
what you said didn't make any sense, I tried to help you educate yourself / understand why it is nonsense, you refused to understand..



Modern physics in no way undermines theism as far as I know, maybe you'd like to enlighten us on where you're getting these absurd claims from? What aspect or law of physics contradicts the universal negative of a supreme God? Also I thought the reason that people don't accept evolution is because it's much too complex? I know that it's a cop-out argument but I felt like entertaining it.:cool:
Really?

The bible says there was a big bang, the earth is 4.5 billion years old and we don't have an immaterial soul that still lives after our death??

Nothing contradicts the "supreme God" because the "supreme God" is this convenient claim that can't be tested and can be adapted to each and every observation. However, the idea of the "supreme God" comes from religion and every religion makes some very specific predictions that can be tested and they are usually wrong, which discredits the "supreme God" to say the least. Moreover, his domain is ever shrinking with new discoveries explaining the previously unexplainable.

I think I explained you before how when the idea first appeared the whole universe consisted of a flat Earth created by God. Now God is something that created a >90 billion-light-year big universe. Do you follow the logic?

No, actually the problem is the theory of evolution since I couldn't bring myself to categorize the majority of people abroad as unintelligent, maybe you could, but this merely reflects your vile nature under whatever false delusions you may suffer from.. You may in fact have a disease..
So according to you most people are well-educated and intelligent when 20% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth and more than half reject evolution? When students in France were asked to draw an approximate map of Europe and none of them managed to do it? When 20% of the world population can't even read?

When the average IQ score worldwide is 95, an IQ score for a chimpanzee is often above 40-50 and the average university professor is supposed to have IQ above 130? This means most scientists are as smarter than the average person as the average person is smarter than a chimpanzee

Suck it up


Actually I never claimed to "know better", I always state specifically that I simply don't take too many things at face value, especially far-fetched claims and irrational theories that dwell at least in large part, in the realm of speculation(in other words, I simply don't believe them[evolutionists]). You are a liar G.. Also, I am forced again to direct you above in order to avoid repetition as your fallacies are endless..
For things you don't know better you have to trust the thousands of people who have researched the subject for more than 200 years
 
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ThaG said:
ParkBoyz, you have used exactly the same argument (2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution) in the past
Immaterial to if I have or haven't mentioned it before in some distant past, the point is that I never made the assertion the we're in a closed system and have never based an argument on such an assertion.

Do you still think the same or not?
About what and pertaining to what assertion?

Simple question? The article definitely says so?
I believe that I provided a public link for all to read, no?..

Another simple question; have you ever taken college level physics and thermodynamics?

Yes or No?
Irrelevant to the content of the discussion. This is how this works G.. If you can and are able to refute an assertion that I actually make, please feel free to offer a rebuttal but my personal life is immaterial to this discussion.


I don't think you're reading and understanding what I'm posting, your whole post is filled with empty words and absolutely no arguments
I don't think you're thinking at all because you haven't gave any examples of what I don't understand and how, that would sure be convenient for you though. The only reason these seem like "empty words" is because you're lost in your own chaos of logical fallacies to the point where you only side track your self and don't understand anything, therefore it is impossible for you to muster up an adequate response as you've already made yourself look like a fool. We must again resort to lies and intentionally unfounded assumptions that means and reflects nothing but your inability to comprehend.



How are you going to criticize something that you don't even understand what it's about?
The burden of proof is on you to prove definitely that the criticisms lack merit.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_theorem

This is opened to criticism according to your own words, I want to see you criticizing it...
Please take a class in philosophy or critical thinking some day, your point is mute and you seem hopelessly lost as it concerns what I tried to convey..



it's not a fallacy, it is you being a dumbfuck and not listening

No, it is you using fallacies to hide behind your lack of comprehension..

ThaG said:
are you going to comment on what I'm saying or you'll keep typing without saying anything?
If you expect me to train you in critical thought and point out all of the errors that you make ad nauseum, then you're in for a rude awakening. That was an adequate response..


Actually your point was based on misunderstanding and misrepresenting of what I say but you refuse to realize it
No, my point was based on your misunderstanding of mostly everything outside of biology, you don't seem to function like a normal human being.


I told you something about the scientific method. There is no place for supernatural explanations in the scientific method. If you invoke the supernatural, you are a poor scientist. This is not religion, no matter how hard you try to make it look so.

this is what every scientist will tell you, yet you refuse to listen and understand

so much worse for you, I can't help you
You're wasting my time as this is irrelevant.. Unless you're agnostic you cannot use this argument because if you're to make a claim(that there is no God), you either need to back it up or you're a victim of faith. The burden of proof is on you to disprove this universal negative since absence of (physical) evidence isn't evidence of absence. You however, will never be able to understand because again, you don't seem to function like a normal person..


what you said didn't make any sense, I tried to help you educate yourself / understand why it is nonsense, you refused to understand..
^It doesn't make any sense to you because for some odd, transcendental reason you seem to not realize the error in your own folly, even when pointed out.



The bible says there was a big bang, the earth is 4.5 billion years old and we don't have an immaterial soul that still lives after our death??

Nothing contradicts the "supreme God" because the "supreme God" is this convenient claim that can't be tested and can be adapted to each and every observation. However, the idea of the "supreme God" comes from religion and every religion makes some very specific predictions that can be tested and they are usually wrong, which discredits the "supreme God" to say the least. Moreover, his domain is ever shrinking with new discoveries explaining the previously unexplainable.

I think I explained you before how when the idea first appeared the whole universe consisted of a flat Earth created by God. Now God is something that created a >90 billion-light-year big universe. Do you follow the logic?
I follow the logic, of course, but you still did not explain to me how physics undermines theism so you basically just relied on filler arguments..


So according to you most people are well-educated and intelligent when 20% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth and more than half reject evolution? When students in France were asked to draw an approximate map of Europe and none of them managed to do it? When 20% of the world population can't even read?
20% isn't most and most of the world believes in a God/creator of some sort.

When the average IQ score worldwide is 95, an IQ score for a chimpanzee is often above 40-50 and the average university professor is supposed to have IQ above 130? This means most scientists are as smarter than the average person as the average person is smarter than a chimpanzee
OMG, this has to be the most uneducated, uninformed statement that you've made in this thread thus far. IQ tests cannot effectively measure full innate intelligence which is confirmed by the American psychological association as many environmental and methodological factors contribute to the outcome of such tests.. There is immense controversy over its validity. G, being the aspiring pseudo-biologist that you are, how can you explain to me or anyone else (genetically) a fully functional human being whose intelligence is intermediate between a chimp and another human being? This is absurd, I can't believe you wrote that, lol!

http://users.fmg.uva.nl/dborsboom/BorsboomPM2006.pdf

Suck it up
Please..


For things you don't know better you have to trust the thousands of people who have researched the subject for more than 200 years
The only thing that I "trust" is my own rationality, until of course I get dementia.. If I were convinced, it would have little to do with them and more to do with my faith in their conclusions. However, I know enough to know that I am not convinced.. Also refer back to what I said and quoted on appeals to authority and Ad hominems as I more or less take the position of Michael Behe..:cool:
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#14
No, my point was based on your misunderstanding of mostly everything outside of biology, you don't seem to function like a normal human being.
He doesn't, and I pointed this out after my first encounter with him. I'm telling you right now, you are going to go back and forth with him until you decide to not give him any attention. Until you do so, it will be the same thing over and over. He will misconstrue what you have openly stated, misquote you, LIE (which is a favorite tactic of his), and resort to EVERY fallacy known to mankind.
 
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HERESY said:
He doesn't, and I pointed this out after my first encounter with him. I'm telling you right now, you are going to go back and forth with him until you decide to not give him any attention. Until you do so, it will be the same thing over and over. He will misconstrue what you have openly stated, misquote you, LIE (which is a favorite tactic of his), and resort to EVERY fallacy known to mankind.
LOL, I've already come to these conclusions as far as this topic is concerned at least; he's chasing his own tail with these circular ass arguments.. For now it would indeed be more progressive for me to let this one go since he's already dragged me into deep water and has me chest deep in his foolishness..:cool:
 

ThaG

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#16
HERESY said:
He doesn't, and I pointed this out after my first encounter with him. I'm telling you right now, you are going to go back and forth with him until you decide to not give him any attention. Until you do so, it will be the same thing over and over. He will misconstrue what you have openly stated, misquote you, LIE (which is a favorite tactic of his), and resort to EVERY fallacy known to mankind.
where did I lie?

examples?

everything I say is a fact, most of what you say is empty of content

Again, where are the lies?

It is easy to say somebody lied, prove it

with facts...
 

ThaG

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@ParkBoyz - you never said what type of system the Earth is and this is a problem. You didn't answer my question about whether you have ever had any good education in physics or not. It is very relevant to the discussion for you're not qualified to make claims about thermodynamics if you don't understand it to begin with

Stop talking shit about critical thinking, both you and HERESY clearly lack it if you are ready to support creationism. Where is your critical thinking when it comes to creationism? Every little gap of understanding, small hole in a scientific theory, or incompleteness of knowledge are sufficient for you to make a huge issue out of it. Don't you see the holes in creationism? These are huuuuge holes to say the least. I want to see your critical thinking working on them...

All the evidence points toward evolution, not creation. Yet people like you who claim to be able to think critically are ready to take on faith a fairy tale about creation that does not agree with the evidence at all (no matter which particular fairy tale it is), and then go and tell the people who use this magic thing "critical thinking" every day in their work to reveal the secrets of nature that they lack critical thinking.


I am telling you that 20% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth and this means most Americans are dumb, You tell me 20% isn't most. Don't you realize that this such a gross ignorance that 20% is a horrifying number? The other 80% might know it, but they sure don't know many other basic things. This is not critical thinking, this is not thinking at all.

OMG, this has to be the most uneducated, uninformed statement that you've made in this thread thus far. IQ tests cannot effectively measure full innate intelligence which is confirmed by the American psychological association as many environmental and methodological factors contribute to the outcome of such tests.. There is immense controversy over its validity. G, being the aspiring pseudo-biologist that you are, how can you explain to me or anyone else (genetically) a fully functional human being whose intelligence is intermediate between a chimp and another human being? This is absurd, I can't believe you wrote that, lol!
Yes, the IQ test isn't 100% objective, yes, the scale is not 100% linear. The point remains though and if you ever get to the level of the person with the high IQ (mine is above or right at the boundary of what the first IQ test can measure (145-150, I haven't taken any higher level test), if that is of any interest for you), you will understand why I say the highly intelligent person is as smarter than the dumb one as the dumb one is smarter than a chimp. For a chimp brain isn't fundamentally different than a human one and there are plenty of retarded humans out there who are not definitely not smarter than a chimp
 

ThaG

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#18
The only thing that I "trust" is my own rationality, until of course I get dementia.. If I were convinced, it would have little to do with them and more to do with my faith in their conclusions. However, I know enough to know that I am not convinced.. Also refer back to what I said and quoted on appeals to authority and Ad hominems as I more or less take the position of Michael Behe..
You haven't demonstrated any rationality...

Michael Behe?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1271,The-Great-Mutator,Jerry-Coyne-The-New-Republic

read the whole thing very carefully, I don't have the time to type the same thing here

very very carefully

LMAO @ a person believing Behe and claiming to be thinking critically
 
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ThaG said:
You haven't demonstrated any rationality...
This shall be disregarded as an unsupported claim of convenience that can be applied to anyone at anytime, any place, but lacks basis in fact and is another one of your deceitful lies..:cool:
 

ThaG

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#20
ParkBoyz said:
This shall be disregarded as an unsupported claim of convenience that can be applied to anyone at anytime, any place, but lacks basis in fact and is another one of your deceitful lies..:cool:
are you going to open the link, read it very very carefully and tell us do you still think Behe is not a shameless liar/hopelessly poor scientist or not?