SADDAM, UDAY, QUSAY.

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Mar 18, 2003
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SADDAM, UDAY, QUSAY.

This thread is intended to enlighten the GOM of what it is we’re fighting against. There have been articles posted on this website, many of which are quite lengthy and I know that some of you don’t have all the time in the world to read through every single one of them, as they can be very time consuming. However, I strongly encourage you to read through this entire thread while I pull the sheets off these filthy animals. If you think the people of the United States have been brainwashed into believing the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do, then you must think again and look at it from another side. I urge you, Anti-American or not, to read through this thread.

If I didn’t write it, it will be in quotes (except for the interview). Some of these articles are old, some are new. You may have read them before and maybe you haven’t, in any case, I present them (again) before you.

"A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.
Here are some things you will learn when you read through this thread and the articles provided therein.

1. Saddam has, for many years, tortured and killed thousands of his own citizens (many of them by his own hands, almost all of them by his own command). These tortures and killings were not uncommon or rarely reported incidents, but occurrences that took place systematically.

2. When they used bullets to kill the victim, they would bring the family down to look at the body and pay $5 per bullet they used to kill their loved one.

3. If you speak out against Saddam, (at least) your tongue will be amputated.

4. There have been several torture chambers uncovered in Iraq (the U.S. and Britain bombed as many of them that were found).

5. The sporting world including the Olympic team in Iraq has diminished because players were tortured and killed for losing.

6. Being Muslim was a suitable crime for punishment.

7. Saddam and his family, when torturing their victims, often force their families to watch against their own will. Similarly, the victims are forced to watch as their wives are raped.

8. If you are arrested for stealing, you can pay $1,600 not be tortured, and double that for a murder charge.

9. If you are the wife of a “criminal” then you can be arrested, raped and beaten while your husband watches.

10. There is no required level of crime or action in order to receive torture, any “crime” that they see fit is punishable. Even losing a football game.

11. Variations of torture consist of, execution, hanging, amputation of tongue as well as various other limbs, electric shock, captivity, solitary confinement (for years upon end), rape, repetitive beating by hand and weaponry, burning, having your family members tortured and killed in front of you, ripping off fingers and toe nails, deadly chemical exposure, hot irons and scolding water to the body, stabbing, caned feet (very common by Uday). Your worst imagination can not possibly think of the many ways these “leaders” tortured and killed their own people, I can not stress this enough, thousands upon thousands of civilians have been viciously murdered in cold blood.

12. There is no justice system in Iraq.

13. Many of the people who “support” Saddam have no idea of what goes on behind the curtains; they are blind to the facts and follow a ghost. His military fights for him (there have been several reports of killings and torture of his own military for refusing to fight for him). The people of Iraq are scared to oppose him, they are afraid of what might happen if they stop following him.

14. Qusay ordered the death of over 2,000 prison inmates by way of a bullet to the head, a human size shredder, or a hanging hall. This decision came when they found their prisons were getting overpopulated.

In recent news, video footage has surfaced showing the torture of civilian Iraqi’s. These actions involved the breaking of wrists with a metal rod, cutting off tongues, and dropping one man from a building. If you would like to watch this video footage, then check out the source. http://www.fox21.com/Global/story.asp?S=1504387 (10/30/03)

Since the fall of the regime, civilians and victims have been coming forward with countless stories of terror. For years these victims kept to themselves in fear of future torture and death, but with the collapse of the Baath party, people have begun to speak.

Saddam was never elected into office; it was his close ties with the military and rulers of the country that landed him a position in office. Saddam has been ruling Iraq for 23 years and brought forth seemingly endless torture, death, propaganda, and poverty. The only people who fought for Saddam were his family and those who feared him. The rest of the country either didn’t know, or didn’t care. The people of Iraq didn’t have a voice, they had no right to choose, only to live their life the way Saddam saw fit, and the only other alternative was punishment. Saddam’s dictatorship lead to the atrocious murder of an enormous amount of human lives, more so to the extent that war crimes are being sought against him. From the torture of thousands of his own civilians, to the gassing of 5,000 Kurds (all dead) in a single day, to invading countries based on their own (Iraq’s) financial instability in the oil industry, Saddam, Qusay, and Uday have been destroying their own country for decades with no respect for human life. Now they are suffering the consequences of their actions for the years of hell they put the people of their country through.

The following is a list of crimes Saddam could face. Provided by a Government website.

Saddam Hussein seized power in 1979. The list of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Saddam Hussein and his regime is a long one. It includes:

The use of poison gas and other war crimes against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. Iraq summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy.

The "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds, including the use of poison gas on cities. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people — mostly civilians — were killed.

Crimes against humanity and war crimes arising out of Iraq's 1990-91 invasion and occupation of Kuwait.

Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq. This includes the destruction of over 3,000 villages. The Iraqi government's campaign of forced deportations of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq has created approximately 900,000 internally displaced citizens throughout the country.

Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Marsh Arabs and Shi'a Arabs in southern Iraq. Entire populations of villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, demolished houses with bulldozers, and undertaken a deliberate campaign to drain and poison the marshes. Thousands of civilians have been summarily executed.

Possible crimes against humanity for killings, ostensibly against political opponents, within Iraq.
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#2
Have you ever sat and wondered why Iraq doesn't participate in the Olympics? This is a sporting event where every country-without harm to one another-can show the world who is better (from a sporting aspect). So why, with this great opportunity, does Iraq choose not to participate. In 1980 Iraq sent 46 people to the Olympics, what happened?

It started in 1984, when Uday Hussein took over as the Iraqi National Olympic Committee president.

"As he stood at the double-door entrance to the office of Iraqi National Olympic Committee president Uday Hussein, the boxer knew what awaited on the other side. He had just returned from a Gulf States competition, where he had been knocked out in the first round. Now it was time to pay the price…

With a wave of Uday's arm the manacled boxer was led into the room by Iraqi secret service. Sitting behind a dark wood desk beneath an oversized portrait of himself, Uday began his tirade. "In sport you can win or you can lose. I told you not to come home if you didn't win." His voice rising, he walked around the desk and gave the boxer a lesson. "This is how you box," he screamed as he threw a left and a right straight to the fighter's face. Blood dribbled from the athlete's nose as Uday launched another round of punches. Then, using the electric prod he was famous for carrying, Uday jolted the boxer in the chest.

Blood was streaming from a cut above the boxer's eye when Uday ordered his guards to fetch a straight razor. The boxer cried out as Uday held the razor to his throat, and as he moved the blade to the fighter's forehead, Uday laughed. He then shaved the man's eyebrows, an insult to Muslim males. "Take him downstairs and finish the job," Uday screamed.

Says Yahia, "They took him to the basement of the Olympic building. It has a 30-cell prison where athletes -- and anyone else who is out of favor with Uday -- are beaten and tortured. That was the last I ever heard of that boxer…

Saddam's plan didn't work," says Issam Thamer al-Diwan, a former Iraqi volleyball player who now lives in the United States and carries a list of 52 athletes he claims have been murdered by the Hussein family. "Iraqi sports are worse today than ever. Our teams used to win. There was much pride in playing for your country. But Uday never understood pride, only fear. He was never an athlete. He thought he could use his father's sadistic approach to improve performance. He has failed. "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/
"The London-based human rights group Indict said the committee [headed by Uday] once made a group of track athletes crawl on newly poured asphalt while they were beaten and threw some of them off a bridge. Indict also said Uday ran a special prison for athletes who offended him.

One defector told Indict that jailed soccer players were forced to kick a concrete ball after failing to reach the 1994 World Cup finals. Another defector said athletes were dragged through a gravel pit and then dunked in a sewage tank so infection would set in."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92616,00.html
This man claims to have a list of 53 athletes killed for their sports contributions, but I have heard reports of numbers much larger. It's not uncommon for a man to die fighting for the love of his country, but it's usually the opposition that does the killing, not your own leaders. The people of Iraq are terrified to play sports.

HEADLINE: Bombs rip Iraq's torture building.

"Iraq's Olympic headquarters in Baghdad - where Saddam Hussein's son Uday is said to have run a torture chamber - was blasted by U.S. war planes and missiles Monday night. The attack on the offices of the Iraqi National Olympic Committee, which Uday Hussein heads, blew out walls on the lower four floors of the nine-story building. An adjacent housing complex appeared unscathed.

As the Daily News reported in January, human-rights activists and former athletes have accused Uday Hussein of jailing, abusing and executing hundreds of athletes who failed to produce victories and medals. He is also accused of running a prison for athletes who did not please him.

Citing witness statements by exiled Iraqi athletes and UN reports, Indict - a London-based human-rights group - said Uday Hussein once made a group of track athletes crawl on newly poured asphalt while they were beaten, and ordered that some be thrown off a bridge.

Former Iraqi weightlifter Raed Ahmad, who defected to the U.S. during the 1996Games in Atlanta, told the Daily News that athletes are routinely deprived of food and sleep, and the soles of their feet are caned. They are chained to walls for days, he said, and sometimes thrown into tanks filled with raw sewage."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/71969p-66741c.html
Thanks to the United States & Britain, an effort to stop the torture and killing of "hundreds" of athletes has been made. Throwing people off bridges, caning their feet, sleep and food deprivation, these guys are representing their country out of love. I can assure you that on this day, there were Anti-Americans all over the U.S. protesting these bombings, ranting about how our country is evil. This like many other instances, contain information you did not know, or don't care to…
 
Mar 18, 2003
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On December 12, 2002 British Royal Marines stumbled across a torture chamber in the basement of an Iraqi police station. There they found where violators were electrocuted, hung and beaten, all for something as small as "speaking out against Saddam".

" Weapons, maps and other documents were found in the raid in the town of Abu Al Khasib, the BBC reporter said Wednesday. But it was downstairs where they found the torture chamber.

One room was completely bare, except for two tires and an electric cable, the BBC reporter said.

He said he was told that an interrogator would use the tires to stand on, while water was poured into the room and the prisoner electrocuted.

Other rooms had hooks hanging from the ceiling, while another 1.2 meter by 2.4 meter (4 foot by 8 foot) cell was equipped with just a pillow and mattress.

The reporter said he interviewed one man, who did not want to be identified, who said prisoners were blindfolded, tied up, hung on the hooks and then beaten."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/02/sprj.irq.iraq.torture/


If you steal in American, you get slapped on the wrist, in Iraq you get electrocuted. In American if you speak out against George Bush, you're likely to get cheered on; in Iraq you get electrocuted and beaten while hanging from the ceiling. How do you feel about your freedom of speech now?

Here is an interview given by foreign office officials to Dr. Hussein Al-Shahristani.

DR HUSSEIN AL-SHAHRISTANI:
I have been a witness to Saddam's violations of human rights in Iraq. I was the Chief Scientist of the Iraqi Atomic Energy Organisation until 1979, working on peaceful applications of atomic energy. I was arrested, tortured and kept in solitary confinement for over 11 years for refusing to work on the military nuclear programme. However, I was more fortunate than many of my fellow political prisoners in the country. I did not have holes drilled into my bones, as happened in the next torture room. I did not have my limbs cut off by an electric saw. I did not have my eyes gauged out. My three children were brought in to the torture chamber but they were not tortured to death in front of me to force me to make confessions to things I had not done. Women of my family were not brought in and raped in front of me, as happened to many of my colleagues. Torturers did not dissolve my hands in acid. I was not among the hundreds of political prisoners who were taken from prison as guinea-pigs to be used for chemical and biological tests.

They only tortured me for 22 days and nights continuously by hanging me from my hands tied at the back and using a high voltage probe on the sensitive parts of my body and beating me mercilessly. They were very careful not to leave any permanent bodily marks on me because they hope they can break my will and I will agree to go back and work on their military nuclear programme.

In a way I was lucky to spend 11 years in solitary confinement because I did not have to see what was going on in the larger prison - the country of Iraq - in which 20 million people were kept captives. I did not have to witness the ceremonies in which mothers were ordered to watch public executions of their sons and then asked to pay the price of the bullets that were used in the executions. I did not have to watch people's tongues being pulled out and cut off because they dared to criticise Saddam or one of his family members. I did not see young men's foreheads branded and their ears cut off because they were late for a few days to report to their military duties. I did not see the beautiful southern Iraqi Marshes drained and the reeds burnt and the Marsh Arabs massacred and their old ways of life destroyed. I did not see the beheading of more than 130 women, who were beheaded in public squares in Iraq, and their heads put out for public display.

QUESTION:
My question is to Dr Hussein. I wonder if you could give us an idea of how you actually managed to get out and what are your most vivid memories of when you were captured and tortured?

DR HUSSEIN:
During the Desert Storm operations I managed to escape from Aboreb Prison and left Baghdad the same night to the north, to Sirimani (phon) in Iraqi Kurdistan and went into hiding until there was an uprising in which I took part in the city of Sirimani and where Saddam's forces were allowed to crush the uprising. We had to flee. I fled with more than a million other Iraqis across the borders into Iran and stayed at refugee camps and started my human rights work from that point. My most vivid memory is hearing the screams of very young children being tortured in the neighbouring torturing rooms.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front...id=1007029391629&a=KArticle&aid=1038489434718

Dr. Hussein, I too am thankful you were only held captive in solitary confinement for 11 years and tortured for 22 days straight, it could have been much worse. All because you wouldn't help Iraq build weapons of mass destruction.

Can you imagine watching your son getting public execution, then paying for the bullet? Drilling into bones, limbs cut off for reporting late to military duty, being shot in the head for not saluting your officer. The list goes on and on. Every time I read through these articles, I find a new method of torture, it's like these people get bored torturing people the same way, so they develop new ways to make the people of their country suffer.
 
Mar 18, 2003
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FACTS:

1. In 1990 Iraq invaded Iran and waged war. The purpose of this invasion, according to the international spokesman for military action (for Iraq) was because "Kuwait's increased oil production [were] dampening Iraqi oil revenues."

2. In 1988 Saddam Hussein order the Iraqi Air Force to drop sarin, tabun, VX and mustard gases on Halabja (pbs.org), which killed 5,000 Kurds in a single day.

"A former top aide to Saddam Hussein's heir apparent says the Iraqi leader's oldest son is steadily becoming more brutal.

Before he recently defected, Abbas Al-Janabi served as Uday Hussein's press secretary. But his high-ranking position did not protect him.

Janabi says he was beaten for three days in 1991 for trying to quit his job. And he says Uday Hussein laughed at his injuries.

A dispute about work again that year landed Janabi in a special prison inside a presidential palace. This time Janabi says Uday sent his bodyguard to pull out one of Janabi's front teeth. The bodyguard took the tooth to prove to Uday that the punishment had been carried out.

Unconfirmed reports of torture and brutality by Iraq's first family have trickled out of Iraq for years.

You can't find any of Uday's friends, he can't show you any of his friends without they are leaning (limping) or without wounds. Even his bodyguards. Even his people who serve him, give him or prepare for him food or drinks. He always likes to torture people."

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9810/08/iraq.defector/
Here are various articles about torture, rape, and death, with a short description on top. The list goes on and on, but I can only provide so much in a single thread. Read through these articles and learn how Saddam and his sons brutally slaughtered thousands of their own people in cold blood over a span of 23 years. Remember, this is nowhere near everything he has done, the list is ENDLESS…

Here is an article telling a story of one man killed by Iraqi leaders. His sister came to sift through a pile of dead bodies to find her son with 5 bullet holes in his chest. They made her pay 5 dollars per bullet that they used to kill him. He was killed because he refused to serve in the military.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,935676,00.html

"Between the men's and women's cells was a long mesh cage. Hamed said here, jailers pressed prisoners against the mesh and squeezed hot irons against their backs or threw scalding water on them in front of other inmates."
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6259822%5E1702,00.html

This article is of a man telling a story about how he walked into a video store in Iraq where he purchased torture videos for $1.50. He claims that he never knew Saddam was like this and tells about how the Baath party always represented him as being a great leader through propaganda (Saddam had full control over the media).
http://in.news.yahoo.com/030625/43/25faj.html

"Army officers also were fair game for Uday's outbursts of violence. In 1983, Uday reportedly bashed an army officer unconscious when the man refused to allow Uday to dance with his wife. The officer later died. Uday also shot an army officer who did not salute him."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92616,00.html

"While millions of Iraqis suffered dire poverty, Uday lived a life of fast cars, expensive liquor and easy women.

When U.S. troops captured his mansion in Baghdad, they found a personal zoo with lions and cheetahs, an underground parking garage for his collection of luxury cars, Cuban cigars with his name on the wrapper, and $1 million in fine wines, liquor - and even heroin.

Iraqi exiles say Uday murdered at will and tortured with zeal, and routinely ordered his guards to snatch young women off the street so he could rape them. The London-based human-rights group Indict (search) said Uday ordered prisoners to be dropped into acid baths as punishment."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92616,00.html

"Qusay also oversaw Iraq's notorious detention centers and is believed to have initiated "prison cleansing" - a means of relieving severe overcrowding in jails with arbitrary killings.

Citing testimony from former Iraqi intelligence officers and other state employees, New York-based Human Rights Watch said several thousand inmates were executed at Iraq's prisons over the past several years.

Prisoners were often eliminated with a bullet to the head, but one witness told the London-based human rights group Indict that inmates were sometimes murdered by being dropped into shredding machines. Some prisoners went in head first and died quickly, while others were put in feet first and died screaming. The witness said that on at least one occasion, Qusay supervised shredding-machine murders."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92618,00.html

"In 1988 forces under Qusay's control executed more than 2,000 people who had been jailed for their anti-government views. In a similar incident on April 26 1998, the pattern was repeated when Qusay visited Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. According to a former member of the Iraqi security service, Khalid al-Janabi, Qusay's death squads started the killing of prisoners at 6am, with one shot to the head to economise on bullets, while other inmates were taken to the gallows in a special "hanging hall". By 9pm, 2,000 inmates were dead."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/07/24/db2402.xml

There are so many more stories…
 
Mar 18, 2003
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Now we invaded Iraq because it was alleged that they had weapons of mass destruction. You need to ask yourself, is this really the reason, or was it our ticket into the country so that we may liberate Iraq. People are so worried that our reasoning behind the invasion is false, that they have forgotten what we are fighting against. If weapons of mass destruction was our only agenda, I would be on your side pointing the finger at Bush, but there is so much more to it. I hope after reading through this thread, and at least some of the articles I provided, that you will gain an understanding about the cruelty that goes on under Saddam. There was no quality of life in Iraq, the people were not happy, and the leaders would rather spend millions building a personal zoo in their backyard than they would fixing the poverty situation. I hear people every day whining about how we only did it for oil, ok, let's go that route. Iraq invaded Iran in 1990 so they could steal the oil and take control, how can you possibly look past something like that. There is going to be a democracy in Iraq, and the people are going to have a choice. It brings me joy to know that the people of Iraq are now free to live their own lives.

I don't care if Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction, I don't care if our own Government lied to him about it, if that's what it takes to get into that country without any resistance from the U.N. or surrounding nations, then I'm all for it. Saddam is an evil, inhumane dictator that needed to be removed by any means necessary.

The fall of Saddam is going to be remembered as another dictator who failed in his ruling. His name will be on the same list as Hitler's.

Some of you people need to rethink your position.

God bless America.
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#6
almost all those atrocities occured when he was our ally, and they ONLY came up when the war drums were beating.

on top of that, the US has/still support other dictatorships, including Indonesia. any body remember East Timor?


fucken hypocrisy
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#7
Saddam tortured people from the beginning to the end, don't be fooled. Dictatorship isn't what im focusing on, it's the actions of the dictator. This, what I have just shown you, is more than enough to invade that country, and thats the bottom line. Oh yeah, fuck hypocrisy.
 
Jul 7, 2002
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Nitro the Guru said:
Saddam tortured people from the beginning to the end, don't be fooled. Dictatorship isn't what im focusing on, it's the actions of the dictator. This, what I have just shown you, is more than enough to invade that country, and thats the bottom line. Oh yeah, fuck hypocrisy.
why did we put him in power? if AMerica is the righteous country u your view
 
Mar 18, 2003
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"While in Egypt he studied the law, earning a degree from the University of Cairo's law school in 1962. Saddam returned to Baghdad in 1963, during a brief period of Ba'ath rule. During this time, Saddam married his cousin Sajida, with whom he subsequently had three daughters and two sons. After the Ba'ath lost power later in 1963, he tried to go into hiding but was arrested and jailed.

In 1966, he escaped from prison and continued his work with the party, culminating in a critical role in the July 1968 coup that brought the Ba'ath party to power for good. Following the coup, Saddam became vice chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council in 1969. Over the next few years, he rose through the party ranks, becoming vice president and deputy secretary-general of the Ba'ath Party's Regional Command.

As vice chairman, he oversaw the nationalization of the oil industry and advocated a national infrastructure campaign that built roads, schools and hospitals. The once illiterate Saddam, ordered a mandatory literacy program. Those who did not participate risked three years in jail, but hundreds of thousands learned to read. Iraq, at this time, created one of the best public-health systems in the Middle East -- a feat that earned Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

But it was also during this time that Saddam reportedly helped form secret police units that cracked down on dissidents and those opposed to Ba'ath rule. He also served in the Iraqi armed forces as a lieutenant general from 1973 until 1976, when he was promoted to general.

On July 16, 1979, President al-Bakr resigned and Saddam rose to the presidency. Five of his fellow members of the Revolutionary Command Council were quickly accused of involvement in a coup attempt and executed, along with 17 other rivals."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iraq/war/player1.html
He appointed himself. Even at the age of 22 he was involved in an assassination attempt against the Iraqi Prime Minister.
 
Jul 7, 2002
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ZNet | Iraq

What The President Wants Us To forget

by Robert Fisk; The Independent; October 08, 2002
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=2442&sectionID=15
Each day now, someone says something even more incredible – even more unimaginable – about President Bush's obsession with war. Yesterday, George Bush was himself telling an audience in Cincinnati about "nuclear holy warriors". Forget for a moment that we still can't prove Saddam Hussein has nuclear weapons. Forget that the latest Bush speech was just a re-hash of all the "ifs" and "mays" and "coulds" in Tony Blair's flimsy 16 pages of allegations in his historically dishonest "dossier". Forget that if Osama bin Laden ever acquired a nuclear weapon, he'd probably use it first on Saddam. No. We've got to fight "nuclear holy warriors". That's what we have to do to justify the whole charade through which we are being taken now by the White House, by Downing Street, by all the decaying "experts" on terrorism and, alas, far too many journalists.

Forget the 14 Palestinians, including the 12-year-old child, killed by Israel a few hours before Mr Bush spoke, forget that when his aircraft killed nine Palestinian children in July, along with one militant, the Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon – a "man of peace" in Mr Bush's words – described the slaughter as "a great success". Israel is on our side.

Remember to use the word "terror". Use it about Saddam Hussein, use it about Osama bin Laden, use it about Yasser Arafat, use it about anyone who opposes Israel or America. Bush used it in his speech yesterday, 30 times in half an hour – that's one "terrorism" a minute.

But now let's list exactly what we really must forget if we are to support this madness. Most important of all, we absolutely must forget that President Ronald Reagan dispatched a special envoy to meet Saddam Hussein in December 1983. It's essential to forget this for three reasons. Firstly, because the awful Saddam was already using gas against the Iranians – which is one of the reasons we are now supposed to go to war with him.

Secondly, because the envoy was sent to Iraq to arrange the re-opening of the US embassy – in order to secure better trade and economic relations with the Butcher of Baghdad. Thirdly, because the envoy was – wait for it – Donald Rumsfeld. Now you might think it strange that Mr Rumsfeld, in the course of one of his folksy press conferences, hasn't chatted to us about this interesting tit-bit. You might think he would have wished to enlighten us about the evil nature of the criminal with whom he so warmly shook hands. But no.

Strangely, Mr Rumsfeld is silent about this. As he is about his subsequent and equally friendly meeting with Tariq Aziz – which just happened to take place on the day in March, 1984, that the UN released its damning report on Saddam's use of poison gas against Iran. The American media are silent about this too, of course. Because we must forget.

We must forget, too, that in 1988, as Saddam destroyed the people of Halabja with gas, along with tens of thousands of other Kurds – when he "used gas against his own people" in the words of Messrs Bush/Cheney/Blair/Cook/Straw et al –President Bush senior provided him with $500m in US government subsidies to buy American farm products. We must forget that in the following year, after Saddam's genocide was complete, President Bush senior doubled this subsidy to $1bn, along with germ seed for anthrax, helicopters, and the notorious "dual-use" material that could be used for chemical and biological weapons.

And when President Bush junior promises the Iraqi people "an era of new hope" and democracy after the destruction of Saddam – as he did last night – we must forget how the Americans promised Pakistan and Afghanistan a new era of hope after the defeat of the Soviet army in 1980 – and did nothing.

We must forget how President Bush senior urged the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam in 1991 and – when they obeyed – did nothing. We must forget how America promised a new era of hope to Somalia in 1993 and then, after "Black Hawk Down", abandoned the country.

We must forget how President Bush junior promised to "stand by" Afghanistan before he began his bombings last year – and has left it now an economic shambles of drug barons, warlords, anarchy and fear. He boasted yesterday that the people of Afghanistan have been "liberated" – this after he has failed to catch bin Laden, failed to catch Mullah Omar, and while his troops are coming under daily attack. We must forget, as we listen to the need to reinsert arms inspectors, that the CIA covertly used UN weapons inspectors to spy on Iraq.

And of course, we must forget about oil. Indeed, oil is the one commodity – and one of the few things which George Bush junior knows something about, along with his ex-oil cronies Cheney and Rice and countless others in the administration – which is never mentioned.

In all of Bush's 30 minutes of anti-Iraq war talk yesterday – pleasantly leavened with just two minutes of how "I hope this will not require military action" – there wasn't a single reference to the fact that Iraq may hold oil reserves larger than those of Saudi Arabia, that American oil companies stand to gain billions of dollars in the event of a US invasion, that, once out of power, Bush and his friends could become multi-billionaires on the spoils of this war. We must ignore all this before we go to war. We must forget.
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#12
http://www.socialist.nu/middle-east/iraq.html

American corporations exported a number of toxic biological materials to Iraq in the 80s, identical to those the United Nations inspectors later found and removed from the Iraqi biological warfare program [read more]


At least 125,000 civilian Iraqis were killed in the Gulf war [read more]


In 1998, when Madelaine Albright was asked whether the reported death of 500,000 Iraqi children as a result of sanctions was justified, she answered 'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it' [read more]


After the Gulf War, an international War Crimes Tribunal was held where the US was found guilty of 19 different crimes

OOHH FUCK? WHO'S GOING TO INVADE US!?!?!?


93.6% of the tonnage dropped in the Gulf war were traditional unguided bombs [read more]


According to Unicef, the United Nations Children’s Fund, 4,000 children under five are dying every month in Iraq because of the sanctions imposed since the Gulf war [read more]


Even after the cease-fire went into effect at the end of the Gulf War, US troops attacked both civilians and retreating iraqi soldiers [read more]


The U.S. government intentionally used sanctions against Iraq to degrade the country's water supply after the Gulf War. [read more]


Two operational nuclear reactors and several chemical plants were consciously bombed during the Gulf war [read more]
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#13
The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America, was a judgement by the International Court of Justice that the United States had violated international law by supporting Contra guerrillas in their war against the Nicaraguan government, and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The United States refused to abide by the Court's decision, even though it was obligated to do so under international law. After the Court's decision, the United States withdrew its declaration accepting the Court's compulsory jurisdiction.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inus_isummaries/inus_isummary_19860627.htm


http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inusframe.htm


"the United States happens to be the only state in the world that has been condemned by the World Court for international terrorism, would have been condemned by the Security Council, except that it vetoed the resolution. This referred to the U.S. terrorist war against Nicaragua, the court ordered the United States to desist and pay reparations. The U.S. responded by immediately escalating the crimes, including first official orders to attack what are called soft targets -- undefended civilian targets. This is massive terrorism. It is by no means the worst, and it continues right to the present"

"World Court condemned the United States for what it called "the unlawful use of force and violation of treaties." "






Nitro, who's going to invade us? becuase we also did bad things.
 
N

NOSTRIL KING

Guest
#14
Excellent Nitro. This is exactly why we should march into North Korea and oust their regime as well.

Oh wait, you don't support that. Why?
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#15
Your first two articles talked about the close relations between Iraq and the United States. I understand and acknowledge that:

1. We gave (chemical weapons) or enabled Iraq to create chemical weapons in the early 1980's.

2. Iraq used to be our ally, and we supported Saddam.

Im not quite sure what it is that your trying to get across.

Are you asking me why we invaded now and not directly after we realized that the weapons that we gave them are now being used unjustifiably against other countries as well as it's own?

Are you trying to convince me that without our early relations with Iraq, they would not be capable of releasing toxic gasses on Kurdish villages?

What I can tell you is that, when Saddam first came to power he was respected and looked at as someone who could be a great leader, hence the close ties and alliance the United States maintained with them. Even one of the links I provided stated:

"Iraq, at this time, created one of the best public-health systems in the Middle East -- a feat that earned Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization."

Many of the atrocities, as you put it, did not come until years after. In the link you provided (http://www.casi.org.uk...) it even states that Iraq was put back on the State Terrorism Sponsorship list in 1985, around the time they were accused of using chemical weapons against Iran.

nefar559 said:
At least 125,000 civilian Iraqis were killed in the Gulf war [read more]
Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died in every major war this world has ever seen, whether our country was involved or not. We're talking about crimes against humanity where Saddam purposely and with complete forethought killed thousands of humans, torturing them on levels you could never imagine. They were not casulties of war, they were not civilians caught up in the warfront, they were ordinary citizens of his own country. The gassing of those Kurds is something that happened on one single day, this guy has been ruling Iraq for 23 years.

nefar559 said:
After the Gulf War, an international War Crimes Tribunal was held where the US was found guilty of 19 different crimes
Was this before or after Saddam's torture video's became a instant hit at the local video store?

The rest of your quotes are just details about the Gulf War. It's sad, some of the tragedy's that become of war. I wonder how many children Saddam has killed. You do know that he killed children too, don't you?
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#16
Nitro the Guru said:
Your first two articles talked about the close relations between Iraq and the United States. I understand and acknowledge that:

1. We gave (chemical weapons) or enabled Iraq to create chemical weapons in the early 1980's.

2. Iraq used to be our ally, and we supported Saddam.

Im not quite sure what it is that your trying to get across.

Are you asking me why we invaded now and not directly after we realized that the weapons that we gave them are now being used unjustifiably against other countries as well as it's own?

Are you trying to convince me that without our early relations with Iraq, they would not be capable of releasing toxic gasses on Kurdish villages?

What I can tell you is that, when Saddam first came to power he was respected and looked at as someone who could be a great leader, hence the close ties and alliance the United States maintained with them. Even one of the links I provided stated:

"Iraq, at this time, created one of the best public-health systems in the Middle East -- a feat that earned Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization."

Many of the atrocities, as you put it, did not come until years after. In the link you provided (http://www.casi.org.uk...) it even states that Iraq was put back on the State Terrorism Sponsorship list in 1985, around the time they were accused of using chemical weapons against Iran.



Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died in every major war this world has ever seen, whether our country was involved or not. We're talking about crimes against humanity where Saddam purposely and with complete forethought killed thousands of humans, torturing them on levels you could never imagine. They were not casulties of war, they were not civilians caught up in the warfront, they were ordinary citizens of his own country. The gassing of those Kurds is something that happened on one single day, this guy has been ruling Iraq for 23 years.



Was this before or after Saddam's torture video's became a instant hit at the local video store?

The rest of your quotes are just details about the Gulf War. It's sad, some of the tragedy's that become of war. I wonder how many children Saddam has killed. You do know that he killed children too, don't you?
the point is that he committed his worst atrocities when he was our ally...with that said, its it hypocritical to say that is US invade iraq on moral grounds, which is what you are claiming....that wasn't why we invaded.
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#18
nefar559 said:
the point is that he committed his worst atrocities when he was our ally...with that said, its it hypocritical to say that is US invade iraq on moral grounds, which is what you are claiming....that wasn't why we invaded.
When we were ally's with Iraq, these stories of torture and murder were not widely spread. People were afraid to tell anyone (note the lady who died partly because she talked to CNN on the phone). We did not witness the torture, it wasn't until years later that it became known. Even if this weren't true, it is not hypocritical--that we invaded Iraq after his worst atrocities--because he continued to torture and kill his own people up until the end of his ruling. He continued to kill and destroy kurdish villages into the mid to late 90's. He is not facing war crimes just because of the 5,000 Kurds he killed, that was a single day. He is accused of killing over 180,000 Kurds, many of which were not killed in the line of fire, but rounded up by Iraqi leaders and executed.

Blight said:
And the IRAQIS welcome us being there to rescue them and dont harm our soldiers.
An enourmous amount of them welcomed us; the Kurds even pleaded for our protection. Look at it this way, some of you guys insist that Americans are brainwashed into believing everything our government tells them. Try 23 years of the same president (someone FAR more vicious and murderous than George Bush) brainwashing it's citizens, for decades. Now consider that, Saddam would KILL anyone who didn't follow him, and he went out of his way to let everyone in the country know. There is no reason for the civilians to believe that this was the end of Saddam, because we have done this before and he remained in power. Of course there is going to be resistance!
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#19
Nitro the Guru said:
When we were ally's with Iraq, these stories of torture and murder were not widely spread. People were afraid to tell anyone (note the lady who died partly because she talked to CNN on the phone). We did not witness the torture, it wasn't until years later that it became known. Even if this weren't true, it is not hypocritical--that we invaded Iraq after his worst atrocities--because he continued to torture and kill his own people up until the end of his ruling. He continued to kill and destroy kurdish villages into the mid to late 90's. He is not facing war crimes just because of the 5,000 Kurds he killed, that was a single day. He is accused of killing over 180,000 Kurds, many of which were not killed in the line of fire, but rounded up by Iraqi leaders and executed.
"Similar concerns arose as Saddam turned to crushing the Kurdish rebellion in the North. In Israel, commentators from the Chief of Staff to political analysts and Knesset members, across a very broad political spectrum, openly advocated support for Saddam's atrocities, on the grounds that an independent Kurdistan might create a Syria-Kurd-Iran territorial link that would be a serious threat to Israel. When U.S. records are released in the distant future, we might discover that the White House harbored similar thoughts, which delayed even token gestures to block the crushing of Kurdish resistance until Washington was compelled to act by a public that had been aroused by media coverage of the suffering of the Kurds, recognizably Aryan and portrayed quite differently from the southern Shiites, who suffered a far worse fate but were only dirty Arabs."
- Noam Chomsky

http://www.southendpress.org/books/Fatefulexc.shtml

give it up Nitro, your thesis is hypocritical ... that wasn't why U.S. went to war.

wanna know more on who counts and who doens't? pick up "POwer and Terror" Noam Chomsky
 
Jul 7, 2002
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#20
The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America, was a judgement by the International Court of Justice that the United States had violated international law by supporting Contra guerrillas in their war against the Nicaraguan government, and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The United States refused to abide by the Court's decision, even though it was obligated to do so under international law. After the Court's decision, the United States withdrew its declaration accepting the Court's compulsory jurisdiction.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inus_isummaries/inus_isummary_19860627.htm


http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inusframe.htm


"the United States happens to be the only state in the world that has been condemned by the World Court for international terrorism, would have been condemned by the Security Council, except that it vetoed the resolution. This referred to the U.S. terrorist war against Nicaragua, the court ordered the United States to desist and pay reparations. The U.S. responded by immediately escalating the crimes, including first official orders to attack what are called soft targets -- undefended civilian targets. This is massive terrorism. It is by no means the worst, and it continues right to the present"

"World Court condemned the United States for what it called "the unlawful use of force and violation of treaties." "






Nitro, who's going to invade us? becuase we also did bad things.