Politics in the US has come to be dominated by people who make a virtue of ignorance

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Apr 25, 2002
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#1
How these gibbering numbskulls came to dominate Washington
The degradation of intelligence and learning in American politics results from a series of interlocking tragedies.

George Monbiot The Guardian, Tuesday October 28 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/28/us-education-election-obama-bush-mccain


How was it allowed to happen? How did politics in the US come to be dominated by people who make a virtue out of ignorance? Was it charity that has permitted mankind's closest living relative to spend two terms as president? How did Sarah Palin, Dan Quayle and other such gibbering numbskulls get to where they are? How could Republican rallies in 2008 be drowned out by screaming ignoramuses insisting that Barack Obama was a Muslim and a terrorist?

Like most people on my side of the Atlantic, I have for many years been mystified by American politics. The US has the world's best universities and attracts the world's finest minds. It dominates discoveries in science and medicine. Its wealth and power depend on the application of knowledge. Yet, uniquely among the developed nations (with the possible exception of Australia), learning is a grave political disadvantage.

There have been exceptions over the past century - Franklin Roosevelt, JF Kennedy and Bill Clinton tempered their intellectualism with the common touch and survived - but Adlai Stevenson, Al Gore and John Kerry were successfully tarred by their opponents as members of a cerebral elite (as if this were not a qualification for the presidency). Perhaps the defining moment in the collapse of intelligent politics was Ronald Reagan's response to Jimmy Carter during the 1980 presidential debate. Carter - stumbling a little, using long words - carefully enumerated the benefits of national health insurance. Reagan smiled and said: "There you go again." His own health programme would have appalled most Americans, had he explained it as carefully as Carter had done, but he had found a formula for avoiding tough political issues and making his opponents look like wonks.

It wasn't always like this. The founding fathers of the republic - Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and others - were among the greatest thinkers of their age. They felt no need to make a secret of it. How did the project they launched degenerate into George W Bush and Sarah Palin?

On one level, this is easy to answer. Ignorant politicians are elected by ignorant people. US education, like the US health system, is notorious for its failures. In the most powerful nation on earth, one adult in five believes the sun revolves round the earth; only 26% accept that evolution takes place by means of natural selection; two-thirds of young adults are unable to find Iraq on a map; two-thirds of US voters cannot name the three branches of government; the maths skills of 15-year-olds in the US are ranked 24th out of the 29 countries of the OECD. But this merely extends the mystery: how did so many US citizens become so stupid, and so suspicious of intelligence? Susan Jacoby's book The Age of American Unreason provides the fullest explanation I have read so far. She shows that the degradation of US politics results from a series of interlocking tragedies.

One theme is both familiar and clear: religion - in particular fundamentalist religion - makes you stupid. The US is the only rich country in which Christian fundamentalism is vast and growing.

Jacoby shows that there was once a certain logic to its anti-rationalism. During the first few decades after the publication of The Origin of Species, for instance, Americans had good reason to reject the theory of natural selection and to treat public intellectuals with suspicion. From the beginning, Darwin's theory was mixed up in the US with the brutal philosophy - now known as social Darwinism - of the British writer Herbert Spencer. Spencer's doctrine, promoted in the popular press with the help of funding from Andrew Carnegie, John D Rockefeller and Thomas Edison, suggested that millionaires stood at the top of a scala natura established by evolution. By preventing unfit people being weeded out, government intervention weakened the nation. Gross economic inequalities were both justifiable and necessary.

Darwinism, in other words, became indistinguishable from the most bestial form of laissez-faire economics. Many Christians responded with revulsion. It is profoundly ironic that the doctrine rejected a century ago by such prominent fundamentalists as William Jennings Bryan is now central to the economic thinking of the Christian right. Modern fundamentalists reject the science of Darwinian evolution and accept the pseudoscience of social Darwinism.

But there were other, more powerful, reasons for the intellectual isolation of the fundamentalists. The US is peculiar in devolving the control of education to local authorities. Teaching in the southern states was dominated by the views of an ignorant aristocracy of planters, and a great educational gulf opened up. "In the south", Jacoby writes, "what can only be described as an intellectual blockade was imposed in order to keep out any ideas that might threaten the social order."

The Southern Baptist Convention, now the biggest denomination in the US, was to slavery and segregation what the Dutch Reformed Church was to apartheid in South Africa. It has done more than any other force to keep the south stupid. In the 1960s it tried to stave off desegregation by establishing a system of private Christian schools and universities. A student can now progress from kindergarten to a higher degree without any exposure to secular teaching. Southern Baptist beliefs pass intact through the public school system as well. A survey by researchers at the University of Texas in 1998 found that one in four of the state's state school biology teachers believed humans and dinosaurs lived on earth at the same time.

This tragedy has been assisted by the American fetishisation of self-education. Though he greatly regretted his lack of formal teaching, Abraham Lincoln's career is repeatedly cited as evidence that good education, provided by the state, is unnecessary: all that is required to succeed is determination and rugged individualism. This might have served people well when genuine self-education movements, like the one built around the Little Blue Books in the first half of the 20th century, were in vogue. In the age of infotainment, it is a recipe for confusion.

Besides fundamentalist religion, perhaps the most potent reason intellectuals struggle in elections is that intellectualism has been equated with subversion. The brief flirtation of some thinkers with communism a long time ago has been used to create an impression in the public mind that all intellectuals are communists. Almost every day men such as Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly rage against the "liberal elites" destroying America.

The spectre of pointy-headed alien subversives was crucial to the election of Reagan and Bush. A genuine intellectual elite - like the neocons (some of them former communists) surrounding Bush - has managed to pitch the political conflict as a battle between ordinary Americans and an over-educated pinko establishment. Any attempt to challenge the ideas of the rightwing elite has been successfully branded as elitism.

Obama has a lot to offer the US, but none of this will stop if he wins. Until the great failures of the US education system are reversed or religious fundamentalism withers, there will be political opportunities for people, like Bush and Palin, who flaunt their ignorance.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#6
Was it on here that someone posted an article that pointed out something to the effect of "dumb people mistakenly think they are smart, while smart people mistakenly assume dumb people are as smart as they are" ?

I am all blurred up here.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#7
I would argue that the problem with the US is the inability/unwillingness to embrace social Darwinism for the positive impact it could have on our society.

This problem is exacerbated by a huge welfare government as well a culture that strives to counter the effects of social Darwinism by not letting those who were doomed to drown do so.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#8
That sounds logical, bit it isnt.

One person will always say they are smarter than another...which would lead to a series of people that are considered "dumb"....

Its all about labels and judgement with humans. Its why we are human.
I was talking philosophically when I said that, actually I don't agree at all with you

In reality we can very well define who is a problem and who is not and this will be a very practical definition: we will not talk about who is smart and relative to who, we will talk about ignorance. And ignorant is everybody who lacks the basic knowledge needed to understand and appreciate the progress that mankind makes in science and technology to such a degree that he will not be opposed to it, definitely will not be actively against it, and possibly will embrace its results and implications and change his lifestyle/worldview based on them
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#9
I would argue that the problem with the US is the inability/unwillingness to embrace social Darwinism for the positive impact it could have on our society.

This problem is exacerbated by a huge welfare government as well a culture that strives to counter the effects of social Darwinism by not letting those who were doomed to drown do so.
Social Darwinism was a very unfortunate and mistaken concept that still wreaks confusion among people

We do not need social Darwinism, because it is essentially what we have right now, and what we have right now is not what we want. We need a society that does not need social Darwinism, and this is a society where each and every person is highly intelligent and educated, such that we will any of today's problems that all ultimately stem from human ignorance combined with the egoistical Darwinian pursuit of propagating ones genes no matter the cost (violence, wars, environmental degradation, overpopulation, social inequality, etc.)

To have such a society we'll have to do some cleaning, of course, plus possibly some manipulation of our genomes, but social Darwinism will not get us there
 
May 9, 2002
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#10
I was talking philosophically when I said that, actually I don't agree at all with you
Youre only disagreeing with me becuase we dont see eye to eye on shit. What else is new? Even if i made an exact statement YOu woud make, you find some way to shoot it down...this is due to your elitist view of not only yourself, but to others you feel are "below" you. This is exactly WHO is was referring to in my second post...people such as YOU. Like how you played right into that? Good job, sport.

Regardless of what YOU think, you can NOT have right without wrong, black withotu right, and smart without stupid...period. Its called a MEASURING stick. How can something be one thing, if we have nothign to compare it to??? We CANT.

In reality we can very well define who is a problem and who is not and this will be a very practical definition: we will not talk about who is smart and relative to who, we will talk about ignorance.
BUt without a measuring stick of what is NOT ignorance, there can not be ignorance at ALL.

And ignorant is everybody who lacks the basic knowledge needed to understand and appreciate the progress that mankind makes in science and technology to such a degree that he will not be opposed to it
So ignorance only applies to what YOU know? More elitist bullshit spewing from you fingertips. Do you ever stop to think that you are just like everyone else...looking at life through subjective eyes? Of course not, becuase that would require you to think objectively for .25 seconds.

definitely will not be actively against it, and possibly will embrace its results and implications and change his lifestyle/worldview based on them
So now we are supposed to embrace and bowdown to everything that "non-ignorant people" present to us? Man...it just flows like diarrhea from your brain straight to you fingertips like clockwork!

When will you get over yourself?
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#12
Youre only disagreeing with me becuase we dont see eye to eye on shit. What else is new? Even if i made an exact statement YOu woud make, you find some way to shoot it down...this is due to your elitist view of not only yourself, but to others you feel are "below" you. This is exactly WHO is was referring to in my second post...people such as YOU. Like how you played right into that? Good job, sport.

Regardless of what YOU think, you can NOT have right without wrong, black withotu right, and smart without stupid...period. Its called a MEASURING stick. How can something be one thing, if we have nothign to compare it to??? We CANT.
We have the absolute zero on the temperature scale, but that does not mean it exists in reality

Same thing here - we can have smart people relative to the dumb people, but this does not mean that the dumb people should be physically present in our society, their conceptual existence is more than enough to do the job


BUt without a measuring stick of what is NOT ignorance, there can not be ignorance at ALL.
see above


So ignorance only applies to what YOU know? More elitist bullshit spewing from you fingertips. Do you ever stop to think that you are just like everyone else...looking at life through subjective eyes? Of course not, becuase that would require you to think objectively for .25 seconds.



So now we are supposed to embrace and bowdown to everything that "non-ignorant people" present to us? Man...it just flows like diarrhea from your brain straight to you fingertips like clockwork!

When will you get over yourself?
No, ignorance does not apply only to what I know, I think I was perfectly clear in my definition. It is not necessary that people know everything about everything (that would be impossible) or a lot about a lot (this is highly desirable and in principle achievable, but we can go without it too). What is necessary is the appreciation for progress in science and technology and understanding its results, even in laymen terms. Once we get that, the next step (everybody being deep into it) becomes much easier, but even if we don't get there, that's already a recipe for a much better world

You can not blame me for being "elitist" because I am defending knowledge against militant ignorance (of the kind you display right now), and this is hardly a cause many people will oppose if presented in its distilled form (the way I just did it), instead of the "elitists vs regular folks" frame. Actually, I have had numerous heated debates with people who hold purely elitist views of the sort "There will always be a small number of educated people and a vast majority of ignoramuses to be ruled over by the elite class" and I am strongly against such positions. The reason for that is that this is basically what we've had for the whole history of humanity, and it obviously does not work. And it does not work because if you have a small number of educated people and a huge number of ignoramuses, the impact of the actions of the latter can become so big that it will vastly outweigh the impact of the actions of the former, as disproportionately large is it might be. In the end, the ignoramuses will inevitably take over and then we're in some deep shit (which is where we are today).

What we need is a society where there are no people below some minimal level of education/appreciation for education, and this level is quite high by today's standards. That's not an elitist view, this is exactly the opposite
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#13
Just to add something I think few people realize:

Right now we have a huge problem with the general public understanding of what science is, which seems to be dominated by the cartoonish image of some (evil) eggheads tinkering with some extremely complicated machinery just to discover something nobody cares about. The problem is so huge that even most people who work in science share the same view, even if not is such an extreme form.

And this is not what science is about, the goal of science is the understanding of the world around us. That's the most distilled down statement of its goals possible. And since it is the only method for achieving this goal that works, it should be perfectly clear why science is in the privileged position of the standard by which we should build a better society.

The problem is that as science progressed, it became more and more complex, more and more branched and fragmented, and although everybody in it is ultimately working towards that same goal it has had since its very beginning and even long before that, it is less and less apparently obvious that this is so. Centuries ago, when science was just emerging out of (and was still called) natural philosophy, it was possible for one man to have the whole knowledge in the world. While this is hardly a desirable situation (because it was made possible by the total amount of knowledge being very small, not by people being some sort of super-geniuses back then), it had the advantage that the ultimate goal of the whole enterprise was much more clear. Of course, it wasn't at all clear to those 99.99% of the population who never even asked these most basic questions about the world around them, but what we have today is a much more complicated beast that makes it much harder for people to understand it, without doing some fairly sophisticated research into the intellectual history of our civilization.
 
May 9, 2002
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#14
What we need is a society where there are no people below some minimal level of education/appreciation for education, and this level is quite high by today's standards. That's not an elitist view, this is exactly the opposite
Impossible. There would no one to run corner markets and gas stations. There would be no one to work cash registers at record stores. There would be no one to work all the jobs that are low-paying and unwanted. You can only have so many college students at one time.

One thing you overlook everytime something about "what we need to do" comes up, is HUMAN NATURE. This is what keeps us where we are and it will NEVER change...unless someone comes up with a mind-altering drug that will override all taboo's and extreme pleasures that we ALL posess at some level.

Human's can NOT be "perfect"....EVER. We would not be human if this were so.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#15
Impossible. There would no one to run corner markets and gas stations. There would be no one to work cash registers at record stores. There would be no one to work all the jobs that are low-paying and unwanted. You can only have so many college students at one time.
Totally disagree with this on just about every level.

There will always be people to run corner markets and gas stations and record stores. And they will always be there even if they have PHD's.

These people should not be denied a higher education just because they choose not to pursue a high paying career path. Nor should they be discouraged from achieving a higher level of education because of their chosen career.

Also achieving a higher standard of learning for the citizenry does not have to be limited only to college. A higher standard needs to be applied at the most basic level and carried through as individuals progress from elementary up through high school.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#16
We do not need social Darwinism, because it is essentially what we have right now, and what we have right now is not what we want.
It cannot be what we have right now, because what we have right not attempts to stop the Darwinian selection process at the bottom of the chain. When people are unable to perform/succeed, they should not be supported by those that are. True Social Darwinism in that sense would allow those people to parish rather than support them and inevitably allow them to keep their genes in the general pool.

Our current societal model would eventually, over the course of many thousands of years, produce two distinct classes of people as those who are successful mate with others who are successful and have offspring that tend to embody the same characteristics that made their ancestors successful; while those who are unsuccessful continue to mate with others who are unsuccessful and their offspring tend to have the same characteristics that made their ancestors unsuccessful.

Rather than continue that model, we need to break from it and cease to support those who tend to be unsuccessful.

You seem to agree on that notion, and I would argue that natural selection through competition would be the most objective way of achieving those results.

We need a society that does not need social Darwinism, and this is a society where each and every person is highly intelligent and educated, such that we will any of today's problems that all ultimately stem from human ignorance combined with the egoistical Darwinian pursuit of propagating ones genes no matter the cost (violence, wars, environmental degradation, overpopulation, social inequality, etc.)
And how do we get to this point? Through the natural selection of those able to survive in our society and the eventual proliferation of their genes.

To have such a society we'll have to do some cleaning, of course, plus possibly some manipulation of our genomes, but social Darwinism will not get us there
Wow!?!? And who exactly would decide what is to be "cleaned"? *cough Hitler *cough :ermm:
 
May 9, 2002
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#17
Totally disagree with this on just about every level.

There will always be people to run corner markets and gas stations and record stores. And they will always be there even if they have PHD's.
In a supposed society of all intellectuals, those people will looked upon as the "dumb ones", just like many are now. Who the fuck WANTS to work at McDonalds? Who WANTS to work as a 7-11 employee all their life? Do you think these people WANT to make minimum wage? That is my point. I hate to corrolate dumb with low payin wages, but these people either lack the ability to accomplish, or lack the ability to want to accomplish. Dont get me wrong, i have met some interesting people working at minimum wage jobs, but the "dumb ones" sorely outweigh the bright, common sense filled ones. It is one thing to work at a fast food joint to get through college or even get through a job transition...but when you have been working the cash register at BK for 5 years...and you have just now borken the $10 plain...and your 35? Obviously, something else is goin on with that situation.

These people should not be denied a higher education just because they choose not to pursue a high paying career path. Nor should they be discouraged from achieving a higher level of education because of their chosen career.
And who said they were? Where in my post did i say anything to the extent of denying ANYONE anything? I hope that ALL people persue bigger and better things, but becuase some DONT, WONT, or CANT, they end up taking the mimimum wage jobs...the jobs that people with PhD's dont want to take or dont NEED to take.

Also achieving a higher standard of learning for the citizenry does not have to be limited only to college. A higher standard needs to be applied at the most basic level and carried through as individuals progress from elementary up through high school.
Even if this is the case, a HS diploma means SHIT these days. Unless you have completed 2 years at a college level, many of those same HS diploma jobs from 15 years ago, wont even look at your applicaiton beyond that point.
 
May 9, 2002
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#18
Wow!?!? And who exactly would decide what is to be "cleaned"? *cough Hitler *cough :errm:
Dont even start in on him with that shit. If it were up to him, he would rid the world of 90% of its population becuase HE feels certain people do not deserve to live. For someone who laughs in the face of a "god", he sure feels ok playing one.

:ermm:
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#19
Impossible. There would no one to run corner markets and gas stations. There would be no one to work cash registers at record stores. There would be no one to work all the jobs that are low-paying and unwanted. You can only have so many college students at one time.

One thing you overlook everytime something about "what we need to do" comes up, is HUMAN NATURE. This is what keeps us where we are and it will NEVER change...unless someone comes up with a mind-altering drug that will override all taboo's and extreme pleasures that we ALL posess at some level.

Human's can NOT be "perfect"....EVER. We would not be human if this were so.
1. I said "education/appreciation for education"

2. In a high tech society a lot of the dirty unrewarding jobs can be outsourced to robots
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#20
Totally disagree with this on just about every level.

There will always be people to run corner markets and gas stations and record stores. And they will always be there even if they have PHD's.

These people should not be denied a higher education just because they choose not to pursue a high paying career path. Nor should they be discouraged from achieving a higher level of education because of their chosen career.

Also achieving a higher standard of learning for the citizenry does not have to be limited only to college. A higher standard needs to be applied at the most basic level and carried through as individuals progress from elementary up through high school.
exactly