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B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#2
Pro Tools always skimps on their converters...

Even the converters in their flagship 192 interface are not up to the task in the eyes (and ears) of many of the top industry professionals... Hence the abundance of Lynx Aurora ADDA converters being used in HD systems...

In an effort to prevent competition with sonically superior (and more cost-effective) products - Digidesign locks their user base in so that Pro Tools will only function on their low-grade hardware...

Pro Tools is a cool app... I actually use it from time to time... but I would suggest testing out other waters before making the plunge!
 

GHP

Sicc OG
Jul 21, 2002
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#3
I want to get into pro tools but I've been hearing the same thing about their converters, I heard the same shit about M-audio shit too. I was eyeballing a project mix but people have been knocking the converters and the pres. I don't want to have to get better converters on top of the high price tag of a digi interface
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#4
When it comes to this music stuff, it seems like Digital hardware is one of the fastest depreciating items that money can buy...

Also, you can't be too careful about getting an 'all in one' box... cuz more than likely the pres and converters will suck ass!

To start off - you might want to get a pre-owned M-Box, M-Audio Firewire Solo or Fast Track Pro so you can run Pro-Tools the cheapest way possible.... that way you can see if you actually like the program before taking the plunge... you can also get a top-notch converter and have it hooked up to your interface via SPDIF...

If you end up liking whatever program you're currently using over ProTools, I can come up with more ways to get a top-notch sound for the price of a 003!

edit:

Here goes a quote from a highly respected ProTools LE guru who tracks with an M-Audio 2626... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProFire2626

"My understanding and experience is on the 002 and 003 you must use Digi converters both in and out in order to get low-latency monitoring mode. This is not the case on the M-Audio 2626."

This could work much better for you and save you a grip of cash...
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#5
Answers to these questions will help us both out:

How many analog ins/outs are you needing? what are you recording?

On a scale of 1-10, with an M-Box being a 1... what kind of conversion quality are you going for?

What other audio app are you currently using?

...and lastly, are you willing to sacrafice sound quality so that you can use Protools, or are you willing to pay what it takes to get a truly professional ProTools setup?

Peace
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#6
@Jayda, when you question if Digidesign skimped on their converters, what exactly would you be comparing them to? Compared to a stand alone HD recorder they may be light years away, and compared to a lynx or apogee they may be close but no cigar.

You're clocking source (if clocking internally or externally) is what you need to be concerned with before you even look into what will potentially be passed into the AD realm.

@BSAN you said:

In an effort to prevent competition with sonically superior (and more cost-effective) products - Digidesign locks their user base in so that Pro Tools will only function on their low-grade hardware...
First of all, sonically superior is very subjective and depends on the ears of the listener. Second of all, there are many products out there that do the same job as some digidesign products yet underperform but cost as much, and by underperform I'm talking about information revealed when white sheets are published. Thirdly, the "locking in" of the user base also prevents piracy due to the hardware being proprietary.

Lastly, when you say it will "only function on their low-grade hardware", what exactly are you comparing it to that would be high grade? If digidesign products are as horrible as you imply, why are they used so much? Yes, in many places they are used in conjuction with other products, and in many places they aren't. The point is if their products were that low-grade on the hardware side, you wouldn't see a lot of studios with their gear. Now you may be thinking, "they have it so they can run the app", but when you look at it there are several apps out there that do MORE than the Pro Tools app and require less. So it's obvious something else is going on.
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#7
I agree with you on many points... now I will add a few of my own...

First of all, sonically superior is very subjective and depends on the ears of the listener. Second of all, there are many products out there that do the same job as some digidesign products yet underperform but cost as much, and by underperform I'm talking about information revealed when white sheets are published. Thirdly, the "locking in" of the user base also prevents piracy due to the hardware being proprietary.

Lastly, when you say it will "only function on their low-grade hardware", what exactly are you comparing it to that would be high grade? If digidesign products are as horrible as you imply, why are they used so much? Yes, in many places they are used in conjuction with other products, and in many places they aren't. The point is if their products were that low-grade on the hardware side, you wouldn't see a lot of studios with their gear. Now you may be thinking, "they have it so they can run the app", but when you look at it there are several apps out there that do MORE than the Pro Tools app and require less. So it's obvious something else is going on.
First of all let me say that I'm glad you took the time out to get into this discussion... this forum’s been dead for too long!

Allow me to present my first example of a great product that is the embodiment of affordability without compromise:

http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=11

The Lynx L22 offers ADDA conversion that is far superior to anything Digi offers in their non-HD platforms...

"With a design very similar to that of their Aurora converters, it delivers near Aurora-quality specs and performance in the compact PCI card format..." Yessir the Aurora that many studios prefer over the ADDA of their 192 HD interfaces!

In addition, Lynx is known for having some of the best drivers on the planet, enabling (with the right app) low-latency performance at 032 samples, which rivals that of Pro Tools HD... all for only $675!

You can use the Lynx L22 with a wide variety of apps, many of which use an iLock or other dongle to prevent piracy... which exposes Digi's justification for forcing their user base to use only their hardware as slightly misleading to say the least...

All in all, I repsect their hustle... On top of that I have a friend who's a high ranking Software Strategist at Digi; he is good people and actually gives a damn about the user... Now some of the guys in coporate might be another story... lol

The positve thing I will say about Pro Tools LE & M-Powered is that it is what I reccomend to the casual hobbyist... All one needs to have is a capable computer, and any Pro Tools interface will work very reliably... Pro Tools has a slick audio engine... and if any problems should arise their tech support is top notch...
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#8
In closing...

Jayda has always struck me as a guy that is more than just the casual hobbyist - in the sense that he is actually seeking a professional solution for his recording needs... He has admittingly felt that he wasted money on a recording school and I feel for him... He openingly questioned the quality of Digi's products, which is another sign of a non-hobbyist... and those are the reasons why I'm down to help him out to the point that whatever he decides to spend his 1500 on, he won't regret it later and lose more money in an attempt to upgrade - as many Digidesign products have a very short shelf cycle and depreciate considerably...

Most proffessionals who use Pro Tools use HD... If they are using LE or M-Powered it is usually just for editing, mobile recording, or some other reason that is meant to be temporary - until they get back the 'real' studio... PT LE's & M-Powered's lack of ADC, subpar ADDA/clocking of the hardware, limited track counts and other intentional crippling of the software will not allow me to recommend using it in a professional enviroment with a clear conscience...

Such a conscience is what many in Digidesign seem to be lacking... But hey, it is capatalism and they are the industry standard - so it's natural that such a position is to be exploited for all it's worth... I'm not at all mad, as such an arrogant stance fuels rebellion in the form of superior proucts!

Pro Tools was the first computer app to effectively record audio (as Soundtools) on a professionally adopted level, so they had a head start at geting their feet planted in the industry, which enabled them to forge key alliances - resulting in their being crowned as the 'industry standard'...

Most of the major commercial of studio owners who eventually fell in line and spent tens (sometime hundreds) of thousands of dollars on their PT rigs, a thou in getting certified, countless hours memorizing the keyboard shortcuts, ect - do not wish to see ProTools' status supplanted... This makes perfect sense as they are in power... similar to alcohol & tobacco companies not wanting Marijuana to be legalized, or Gas and Oil's opposition to alternative fuels, but I digress...

In short: If one wants to use ProTools in a professional manner, I would suggest buying a used HD system...

If one is more concerned with obtaining the best possible sound quality for the same amount of money, I have a variety of other suggestions...

ProTools vs everybody else: whatever side of the spectrum we sit on, we should all be thankful that there is sonically superior competition... because that fuels innovation!

Payceout
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#9
First of all let me say that I'm glad you took the time out to get into this discussion... this forum’s been dead for too long!
TY.

Allow me to present my first example of a great product that is the embodiment of affordability without compromise:

http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=11

The Lynx L22 offers ADDA conversion that is far superior to anything Digi offers in their non-HD platforms...
But the posts I quoted have nothing to do with what Digi offers in their non-HD platforms. In fact, in your first post in this thread you made reference to their high end system twice, and if you refer to my previous post, I even suggested that when compared to a Lynx, it may be close but no cigar.

"With a design very similar to that of their Aurora converters, it delivers near Aurora-quality specs and performance in the compact PCI card format..." Yessir the Aurora that many studios prefer over the ADDA of their 192 HD interfaces! In addition, Lynx is known for having some of the best drivers on the planet, enabling (with the right app) low-latency performance at 032 samples, which rivals that of Pro Tools HD... all for only $675!
I'm looking at the specs now, and while the specs may be close, even the card you suggested falls short when compared to the higher end version. In addition, compared to the 003 specs, the pci card is damn near the same when slight differences in head room and frequency response. Now the question is, do you *need* those specs and need that much headroom for optimal levels when recording? And when you refer to low-latency performance that rivals Pro Tools HD, what latency are you refering to exactly?

You can use the Lynx L22 with a wide variety of apps, many of which use an iLock or other dongle to prevent piracy... which exposes Digi's justification for forcing their user base to use only their hardware as slightly misleading to say the least...
How does using the Lynx with any app expose Digi in any way? Do you know anything about the Pro Tools code, how it was written or why they had so much trouble just getting the app to work with the M-Audio devices? The way I see it, they're simply using the hardware as an expensive dongle with bells and whistles.

Jayda has always struck me as a guy that is more than just the casual hobbyist - in the sense that he is actually seeking a professional solution for his recording needs... He has admittingly felt that he wasted money on a recording school and I feel for him... He openingly questioned the quality of Digi's products, which is another sign of a non-hobbyist... and those are the reasons why I'm down to help him out to the point that whatever he decides to spend his 1500 on, he won't regret it later and lose more money in an attempt to upgrade - as many Digidesign products have a very short shelf cycle and depreciate considerably...
I'm not knocking you for helping him out, I've made suggestions to him and many others in the past, and you'll see that my suggestions are solely based on what the user needs/wants and not on my needs/wants. However, to simply assume that digidesign products do not hold up in tests or performance is where I see the problem and this brings me to another point.

Have you done any real world application tests to justify your claims or are your claims solely supported by the experiences and expertise of others? In regards to short shelf life, that is solely dictated by one of two things (or even both): The products reliability/functionality (meaning if it easily breaks down) or the release of a new model with new features.

Most proffessionals who use Pro Tools use HD... If they are using LE or M-Powered it is usually just for editing, mobile recording, or some other reason that is meant to be temporary - until they get back the 'real' studio... PT LE's & M-Powered's lack of ADC, subpar ADDA/clocking of the hardware, limited track counts and other intentional crippling of the software will not allow me to recommend using it in a professional enviroment with a clear conscience...
Again, this all goes back to preference and what one would say is "professional." So what exactly is professional to you? A lynx converter? Ok thats great, now what about a subpar room that lacks concrete, doesn't have floating floors, has dimensions that are multiples of each other, standing waves, etc? The pros you mentioned also have rooms that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions to build, so are you implying that it's all on the gear and one can get by with minimal acoustic treatment? And what about monitoring?

Also, there are PLENTY of "professional" users on the DUC that use LE in a professional environment, and if you want I can post their names here so you can hit the DUC, look up their posts and look at the credits they have under their belts.

So again, what is professional to you? What is a professional environemnt?

Such a conscience is what many in Digidesign seem to be lacking... But hey, it is capatalism and they are the industry standard - so it's natural that such a position is to be exploited for all it's worth... I'm not at all mad, as such an arrogant stance fuels rebellion in the form of superior proucts!
I've mentioned it before, but there was a major label rock band that had an album debut on the billboard 3 slot years ago and they recorded on a digi 001, and the only external piece used was an avalon pre. Yes, Digidesign is a company out to get your money, yes they have a strangle hold on the recording industry, yes they force you to use crippleware, but there are upsides to using the products as well. Their stubborness has forced other companies to step their game up, but that also creates another problem because some of those companies offer cheap alternatives that perform in a cheap manner. When this cheap gear gets in the hands of the someone who may not be technically savy, or understand a lick about proper recording, a whole can of worms is opened.

In short: If one wants to use ProTools in a professional manner, I would suggest buying a used HD system...If one is more concerned with obtaining the best possible sound quality for the same amount of money, I have a variety of other suggestions...

Now here is where we will butt heads and totally disagree. Again, professional is entirely subjective. I would suggest using it if it suits your needs. Nothing more and nothing less. If you need more than 48 stereo tracks and don't want to use stems stay away. Need 5:1 or 7:2? Stay away. Need to sync to video? Stay away. Wanna record a band? Covered. Need to record beats or record a rapper? Covered. Need to mix in the box? Covered (rumors are a new ADC plug is on the way, but I know for a fact vst one exists so use the wrapper). Again, it all depends on what the person is doing and what their needs are.

Now what I would suggest if one had the money to purchase Pro Tools HD, need to use Pro Tools, and track count weren't an issue, would be to purchase a 002 or 003, get the BLA mods and spend the rest on outboard gear. That will get you a better sound sonically (yes according to specs and many users), the downside is low track count (48), not enough I/O and latency issues (which can be rectified.)

ProTools vs everybody else: whatever side of the spectrum we sit on, we should all be thankful that there is sonically superior competition... because that fuels innovation!
I agree.

Be cool.
 

MALKI

Sicc OG
Feb 2, 2006
2,193
2
0
#10
its not that much of a difference. you can get a mix sounding clear as HD or clearer on an LE system. trust me:

i went to a studio to get my song mixed that charge $50 an hour to mix on HD and a big 500,000 dollar SSL board with monitors that are in the walls and acousitcly tuned rooms. lol. dude mix my song - put it on my flash drive that i plug in the the usb input in my car. we get in the car and slap it and i turn it up im thinking: this sounds really good! he did a good job. so we go back in he finishes the mix and i bounce and go to the house i get there and realize i had been playing MY MIX that i did at my house on PT LE with some $300 m-audio monitors. LOL. then i finally hear his shit it sounds like shit. ahahaha. waste of money - but lesson learned.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#11
its not that much of a difference. you can get a mix sounding clear as HD or clearer on an LE system. trust me:

i went to a studio to get my song mixed that charge $50 an hour to mix on HD and a big 500,000 dollar SSL board with monitors that are in the walls and acousitcly tuned rooms. lol. dude mix my song - put it on my flash drive that i plug in the the usb input in my car. we get in the car and slap it and i turn it up im thinking: this sounds really good! he did a good job. so we go back in he finishes the mix and i bounce and go to the house i get there and realize i had been playing MY MIX that i did at my house on PT LE with some $300 m-audio monitors. LOL. then i finally hear his shit it sounds like shit. ahahaha. waste of money - but lesson learned.
LMAO!
 

GHP

Sicc OG
Jul 21, 2002
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#12
Well my ultimate plan is to have a lab that i can record a band if i needed too but my main focus would be on beats, vocals and light post production for little stuff like weddings and corporate events. I want alot of I/O with good quality, I'm not expecting SSL quality with the budjet I have but enough to produce a good sounding mix. I know the majority of the stuff coming out of the bay isn't being recorded in multi million dollar studios and it still sounds professionally put together (well at least a good portion of it) . I want to be able to build the foundation to a nice multitrack studio for starters. I'll get the higher end channel strips and all that stuff once i laid down the groundwork which for me would be a solid computer/interface combo. I'll be getting a new computer b4 anything so i still have time to toil over this

I've thought about standalone multitrack recorders but that stuff is turning into phased out technology, they dont even make pieces like roland VS2400s anymore etc and everyone is turning to computer based daws, mainly protools and Logic. I've mainly looked at M-Audio gear so I can have the choice between platforms but with this Digi003rack plus seems like a solid cost effective option. Lots of I/O at the same price of the original 003, they are boasting better converters IDK something to look at

This might be a lame question but if i was to get external converter how does it hook to your interface to clean up the sample rates going in? It is gonna have to bypass the converters on the piece you are using? I always thought da/da is a 1/1 conversian. that was always something that slightly confused me
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#13
http://www.answers.com/topic/analog-to-digital-converter

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/computer-audio/audio_interfaces/buying_guide.php

I didn't know Pro Tools 8 was out.


Got Pro Tools LE or Pro Tools M-Powered? Get ready to create even larger mixes than ever.

Pro Tools 8 expands the power of your current hardware interface, allowing you to work with up to 48 mono or stereo audio tracks. Add Music Production Toolkit 2 (for serious musicians and music producers) or DV Toolkit™ 2 (for complete post production, Pro Tools LE only) and you can create huge mixes, with up to 64 mono or stereo audio tracks. And with the new Complete Production Toolkit (Pro Tools LE only), which combines both toolkits, you can work with up to 128 audio tracks AND get 7.1 surround mixing capabilities, making it easier than ever to collaborate with Pro Tools|HD users.

Disregard what I said about track count limit and 7.1 mixing.

Downside: over 2 racks for all of that shit.
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#14
Now what I would suggest if one had the money to purchase Pro Tools HD, need to use Pro Tools, and track count weren't an issue, would be to purchase a 002 or 003, get the BLA mods and spend the rest on outboard gear. That will get you a better sound sonically (yes according to specs and many users), the downside is low track count (48), not enough I/O and latency issues (which can be rectified.)
I agree. A resourceful man can overcome many hurdles in an effort to get the most out of his recording setup... your non-biased approach bodes well for the Siccness Studio Community...

I agree.

Be cool.
You sir, are a gentleman and scholar... we could go back and forth for days and in the end, reach very similar conclusions... so for the sake of succinctity - I propose a toast!

*raises glass*
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
2,328
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#15
its not that much of a difference. you can get a mix sounding clear as HD or clearer on an LE system. trust me:

i went to a studio to get my song mixed that charge $50 an hour to mix on HD and a big 500,000 dollar SSL board with monitors that are in the walls and acousitcly tuned rooms. lol. dude mix my song - put it on my flash drive that i plug in the the usb input in my car. we get in the car and slap it and i turn it up im thinking: this sounds really good! he did a good job. so we go back in he finishes the mix and i bounce and go to the house i get there and realize i had been playing MY MIX that i did at my house on PT LE with some $300 m-audio monitors. LOL. then i finally hear his shit it sounds like shit. ahahaha. waste of money - but lesson learned.
Priceless!
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
2,328
173
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#16
This might be a lame question but if i was to get external converter how does it hook to your interface to clean up the sample rates going in? It is gonna have to bypass the converters on the piece you are using? I always thought da/da is a 1/1 conversian. that was always something that slightly confused me
It will hook up to your interface via SDIF or AES/EBU... That way your interface receives the digital signal that was converted from analog by the external unit...

It will also be a good thing to set up your external converter as the master clock and set your interface as a slave...

You can slave your interface via BNC connector - you will need to run a BNC word clock cable from the BNC word clock output of your external converter to the BNC word clock input of your interface.

From your interface, select BNC as your external clock source. .

Any converters you particularly interested in?
 

B-San

Sicc OG
Apr 7, 2006
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#17
I've thought about standalone multitrack recorders but that stuff is turning into phased out technology, they dont even make pieces like roland VS2400s anymore etc and everyone is turning to computer based daws, mainly protools and Logic.
Now that Roland is a majority share holder at Cakewalk - it looks like an evolution on both ends is in progress:



http://www.sonarvstudio.com/

Looks cool for those that have an affinity for them Roland VS models...

Thoughts?
 

GHP

Sicc OG
Jul 21, 2002
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#18
Now that Roland is a majority share holder at Cakewalk - it looks like an evolution on both ends is in progress:



http://www.sonarvstudio.com/

Looks cool for those that have an affinity for them Roland VS models...

Thoughts?

that looks pretty sweet hopefully it comes out unlike that Dave smith Roger Lynn sampler theyve been talking about. That shit looks fuckin bad, hopefully they release it
 

GHP

Sicc OG
Jul 21, 2002
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#20
is it an interface or control surface? I couldnt find any specs on its I/O its features as a control surface is sick though. that shit will definatly have more people fucking with sonar, (edit) nevermind the interface and control surface are separate. i wonder how much tye are gonna charge for this? looks built well