"He is directly and indirectly conscious [knowing and unknowing]of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no cause beyond Him"(canto 1 ch.1 text 1)
All that other shit aside, I appreciate that you have come with this type of formulated "argument", for lack of a better term, because it establishes a common referent to begin from. But can I ask where have you gotten this translation of the Bhagavatam from?
I ask because the translation you have offered only gives one sentence of the verse whereas the original text is more than 5 sentences. This is the actual text:
Sanskrit
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya janmady asya
yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah svarat
tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat
surayah tejo-vari-mrdam yatha vinimayoyatra
tri-sargo 'mrsa dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyamparam dhimahi
Transliteration to English
om -- O my Lord; namah -- offering my obeisances; bhagavate -- unto the Personality of Godhead; vasudevaya -- unto the son of Vasudeva, or Lord Sri Krsna, the primeval Lord; janma-adi -- creation, sustenance and destruction; asya -- of the manifested universes; yatah -- from whom; anvayat -- directly; itaratah -- indirectly; ca -- and; arthesu -- purposes; abhijnah -- fully cognizant; sva-rat -- fully independent; tene -- imparted; brahma -- the Vedic knowledge; hrda -- consciousness of the heart; yah -- one who; adi-kavaye -- unto the original created being; muhyanti -- are illusioned; yat -- about whom; surayah -- great sages and demigods; tejah -- fire; vari -- water; mrdam -- earth; yatha -- as much as; vinimayah -- action and reaction; yatra -- whereupon; tri-sargah -- three modes of creation, creative faculties; amrsa -- almost factual; dhamna -- along with all transcendental paraphernalia; svena -- self-sufficiently; sada -- always; nirasta -- negation by absence; kuhakam -- illusion; satyam -- truth; param -- absolute; dhimahi -- I do meditate upon.
^^^ Now I don't expect anyone to actually waste their time reading that, so don't waste yours by whining like little bitches about it. I put it there only for anyone who wishes to question the authenticity of the translation. You can take that transliteration to anyone who knows Sanskrit, and they will have no objections.
Translation (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1)
[color=sky blue]"O my Lord, Sri Krsna, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Sri Krsna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmaji, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krsna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.[/COLOR]
curious because it is also said that Krnsa (the cause of causes) is the son of Vasudeva. Vasudeva is the created (or caused) the energies of cause and effect from his own internal energies.(canto 1 ch. 2 text 31)
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.31:
taya vilasitesv esu gunesu gunavan iva
antah-pravista abhati vijnanena vijrmbhitah
[color=sky blue]"After creating the material substance, the Lord [Vasudeva] expands Himself and enters into it. And although He is within the material modes of nature and appears to be one of the created beings, He is always fully enlightened in His transcendental position."[/color]
Krsna is called Vasudeva because Vasudeva is the symbol of the transcendental position wherein the appearance of the Supreme Lord takes place. Vasudeva is the "father" of Krsna, and what his name implies that he is the infinite capacity empowered by the Lord, to facilitate the Lord's appearance.
So you are arguing that Vasudeva is the created, and this is true, but since Vasudeva is created by Krsna for the purpose of providing Krsna with the transcendental capacity to perform His eternal pasttimes, what is the contention?
but since Vasudeva and Krsna are both the personification of the absolute this makes the equally the Absolute.
No. That is fallacious. Absolute means 1 totality. Absolute is one without a second. If you say that one Absolute is "equal" to another Absolute, then there is no meaning to the word Absolute because what you are saying is that all is relative to the other.
That is why Krsna is referred to as the Supreme Person,
bhagavan.
Bhaga = opulences,
van = possessing. Krsna is the Supreme Person because he possesses in full each of the 6 opulences of fame, beauty, wealth, knowledge, power, renunciation. If there are two equal Supremes, then Supreme has no meaning.
following in canto 1 it is also said that he is free from the representations of the material world and is Absolute.
"In the beginning of material creation Vasudeva, in his transcendental position created the energies of cause and effect by His own internal Energy"
Vasudeva which can be equated with Krnsa "causes" material creation and cause and effect OUT OF HIMSELF
MEANING. KRNSA is both attached and detached to the material universe. as the absolute.
No, first of all they cannot be "equated". They are not equal. Vasudeva is dependent upon Krsna, Krsna is not dependent upon Vasudeva. That is the distinction. But you are correct that Krsna "causes" material creation and cause and effect "out of Himself". And yes, He is both attached and detached to the material universe, as the absolute. That position of attachment and detachment is the transcendental position. Each of us is actually a transcendental entity, but it is due to our misidentification and conditioning within the material world that we mistakenly identify with our bodies and minds and remain oblivious to the higher transcendental position.
Krsna is attached and detached, and that feature of the Lord is known as
acintya-bhedabheda-tattva: inconceivable simultaneous oneness and distinction. He is both attached and detached, trancending.
in text 31 it also says that after creating the material substance from himself he entered into it. and although he is in it he is beyond it.
Exactly. Because there is a distinction between the power and the powerful. The material universe is a display of the power of the Lord, but He is eternally the powerFUL, which means that at no time can the material energy bewilder Him or illusion Him nor can it ever overcome Him as it does to us.
Finally, in text 34 he assumes the roles of incarnations. meaing that he is us in facets and we as the various forms of him are his entertainment.
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.34:
[color=sky blue]"Thus the Lord of the universes maintains all planets inhabited by demigods, men and lower animals. Assuming the roles of incarnations, He performs pastimes to reclaim those in the mode of pure goodness."[/color]
You said: "..meaing that he is us in facets and we as the various forms of him are his entertainment."
I disagree. The Lord incarnates in different fashions with the purpose of attracting the conditioned souls back to the spiritual world. Every living being searches after happiness and pleasure, but in this world which is by nature transitory, the pleasure is fleeting and unsatisfying. This propensity for the living being to enjoy is present because it is present in the Supreme Being. The Supreme eternally enjoys infinite bliss, and in this material world the bliss is illusory, so the Lord advents in different incarnations with the purpose of providing the sincere souls with the means for returning to the spiritual world where they may return to their eternal position of eternal pleasure in connection with the eternal provider and recipricator of pleasure.
You say "He is us in facets", but actually it is the other way around. We are the infinite fragments of the complete whole. Any thing we possess in minute fraction is present because it is possessed in complete by the complete whole. Including a form.
We have miniscule forms, and He has the supreme form.
chapter three starts saying that krsna is all incarnations. although he is and is in each incarnation he is seperated from them in absolute transcendence.
Correct, and what should be understood is that in the spiritual world, in the abode known as
Goloka-Vrndavana, Sri Krsna eternally resides in His eternal 2 armed human form, enjoying His transcendental pastimes.
This is expressed in the quote you gave, 1.1.1: "..I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krsna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth."
Whenever He incarnates in the material realm in many different forms, He is not forced to "leave" the spiritual realm when He incarnates here. He is able to be present in two places at once, what to speak of an infinite number of places at the same time. He eternally remains in His abode, but being transcendental, He expands through His potency and incarnates according to His will.
