God is not all-knowing and all-powerful???

[n9newunsixx5150]

There are actually Christians (if we can call them that) who believe that God is not all-knowing and all-powerful. For example, there is this radio personality, Bob Enyart, who I was introduced to when I listened to a recent debate between himself and the Infidel Guy, Reggie Finley.

So this is for all the Christians on the GOM. What do you think about this?

 

[phil]

god being all knowing and all loving contradicts itself in the bible. the fact that we're even debating this is proof as such.

love to god is giving humans a "choice" between hell or a life of servitude to a ruler we dont get to meet until our only life is over. nice huh?

 

[2-0-NINE]

There are actually Christians (if we can call them that) who believe that God is not all-knowing and all-powerful. For example, there is this radio personality, Bob Enyart, who I was introduced to when I listened to a recent debate between himself and the Infidel Guy, Reggie Finley.

So this is for all the Christians on the GOM. What do you think about this?

From what you already know 916, what makes this man a Christian if he believes such a thing?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

He claims that the Bible doesn't teach that God is omniscient or omnipotent. For example, he says that God does not know what will happen in the future and basically explains prophecies as really good guesses. Yeah, I know it sounds absurd. Part of his reasoning to reject God having foreknowledge is because he sees a contradiction in God's free will. The argument is, if God knows what will happen in the future, then no one, not even God Himself can change it, and therefore God has no free will. How would you respond to that, Red Sin?

 

[2-0-NINE]

He claims that the Bible doesn't teach that God is omniscient or omnipotent.

Let me check....Acts 1:24 "Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men."

. For example, he says that God does not know what will happen in the future and basically explains prophecies as really good guesses.

Then he contradicts his claim as a Christian. If prophecies are really good guesses by God, why did most of the prophecies in the bible become fulfilled? If God does not know the Future why did he predict the Jews wouldn't accept Jesus, or that the Jews would fall away from their original religion. Ultimately leading the Jews into Talmudism.

Yeah, I know it sounds absurd. Part of his reasoning to reject God having foreknowledge is because he sees a contradiction in God's free will.

If God is omnipotent and always good and Just, why can't he do what he pleases? There's no one to hold him abound.

The argument is, if God knows what will happen in the future, then no one, not even God Himself can change it

If he sets forth a plan that he has said will happen and that he will not change It will be done. Great Example Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing wereto I sent it."

Get it? Got It? Good!

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

For one, knowing the hearts of all men does not constitute omniscience. So that really doesn't answer Mr. Enyart's challenge.
Secondly, he makes an example of prophecies that go unfulfilled by referring to things God said that he would do, but then changed His mind after a certain individual would repent.
Lastly, Mr. Enyart would argue that at no time could God set forth a plan since, if He is all-knowing, then He must have had that plan for all eternity and thus couldn't have really planned it; that God must be slave to 'fate'.

But hey, I totally agree with you, Red Sin. My answer to his arguments is to explain God's thoughts and actions on the absolute platform which is transcendental to our time. Ultimately this issue deals with the inconceivable potency of God, but in concept we can come to proper realization.

Whenever you have the time you should listen to one of this guy's broadcasts here: http://www.enyart.com/bel_56kbps/20070326

Thanks for the verse from Isaiah!

 

[2-0-NINE]

For one, knowing the hearts of all men does not constitute omniscience.

Bro, I'm not that great of a critical thinker from my past posts. But think quickly, if God KNOWS ALL THE HEARTS OF MEN, meaning their thoughts, and future actions, how does this not show Infinite Knowledge? How could the Very God that created all men and their desires and minds be not all knowing? The fact God will judge ALL MEN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS AND FAITHS means he's all knowing, so you still believe this does not constitute omniscience? I think so. If he's not all knowing, how could he judge men of their works on earth?

Secondly, he makes an example of prophecies that go unfulfilled by referring to things God said that he would do, but then changed His mind after a certain individual would repent.

I need to listen to it, but I've been working so much that I seldom get the chance to listen to links anymore, better yet even get the time of day to start a convo anymore. As far as God changing a prophecy because of someone repenting I don't think that ever happened. God foretold everything before it was going to happen. He would say He would bless his people, then predict they would disobey his eventually leading to punishment or discipline from God. God predicted the Jews wouldn't accept Jesus, so Salvation was extended to all those that believed in Y'Shua, or the coming Salvation of Yahweh. I need to dig into my notes because I could go more in depth.

Lastly, Mr. Enyart would argue that at no time could God set forth a plan since, if He is all-knowing, then He must have had that plan for all eternity and thus couldn't have really planned it; that God must be slave to 'fate'.

Once again, I know you read the scripture. It's self explanatory. God is not subjected to anything, God cannot create a Rock too heavy for him, for it would contradict his very being. His word stands firm like a Rock, his will is that his Word is to be completed and not changed.

God Bless Bro, and I'll peep that debate or audio link as soon as my next day off.

 

[I AM]

@n9newunsixx5150:

LOOK UP GNOSTICISM YOU FUCKING MORON. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THING YOU FUCKING DOLT!

You need to quit saying, "we are us and you are them," STOP DIVIDING PEOPLE AND unite or shut the fuck up, cause unless you doin that you ain't a Christian in the first place.

btw, fuck that stupid organized religion bullshit. anyone who believes/follows ORGANIZED religion is a FUCKING TOOL.

 

[2-0-NINE]

Dude what's your problem Sixx? If you're not going to contribute, just read and pass along.

 

[Hemp]

knowing the hearts of all men means to know mans intent.
being all knowing or having eternal knowledge is what u should be lookin for stockton

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

@n9newunsixx5150:

LOOK UP GNOSTICISM YOU FUCKING MORON. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THING YOU FUCKING DOLT!

You need to quit saying, "we are us and you are them," STOP DIVIDING PEOPLE AND unite or shut the fuck up, cause unless you doin that you ain't a Christian in the first place.

btw, fuck that stupid organized religion bullshit. anyone who believes/follows ORGANIZED religion is a FUCKING TOOL.

^^^^Ladies and gentleman, we have our first April fool.

 

[2-0-NINE]

knowing the hearts of all men means to know mans intent.

Exactly, where does the intent of man start off primarily, In the brain right? As a thought, which eventually is carried out as the intent of man, am I correct? So then if he knows you're intent, then he knows what you're thinking.

being all knowing or having eternal knowledge is what u should be lookin for stockton

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I don't think he is being sarcastic. Knowing all men's intent does not constitute perfect knowledge of the future. In only means that God has a better facility for guessing what a person is more likely to do. And then what to speak of nonhumans? Does God know their hearts? That verse doesn't state that much.

 

[Hemp]

Exactly, where does the intent of man start off primarily, In the brain right? As a thought, which eventually is carried out as the intent of man, am I correct? So then if he knows you're intent, then he knows what you're thinking.

WRONG.
intent, belief, disliking, and all the like are thoughts

you need to understand that each intent is dictated by ones standards/limits, morals, which are in return governed by ones time of birth, location, self, and what one is taught to believe.


so really, even tho a muslims intent was to be good and please god, his standard varies with the christian who believes the muslims actions are unconstitutional.

you need to pay attention to your OWN thoughts while asking "why is this the norm" then follow that and say then why is THIS normal?
and you will see that your complete assumption or "understanding" is but a dellusional guess of what "reality" is, based on your own standards and belief of the norm.

i hope i dont have to explain anymore but knowing you, you gonna reply with "WHAT ARE U A MUSLIM OR NOT!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!", again.

 

[2-0-NINE]

Knowing all men's intent does not constitute perfect knowledge of the future.

For a man with great knowledge, YOU DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE QUESTION I POSED. When God warns men or give a revelation unto his prophets, they come true, this point in the bible validates his knowledge of the future. Now if he has no knowledge of the future, how then could he know who will be in heaven or hell? But let me ask you this, why does man try to belittle God? Why does man always question God's demeanor?

 

[2-0-NINE]

you need to understand that each intent is dictated by ones standards/limits, morals, which are in return governed by ones time of birth, location, self, and what one is taught to believe.

You're generalizing in this case Hemp, not all people are going to be like this. I could have been raised a Orthodox Jew, later to be a reformed Jew, then all of a sudden become a Buddhist.

so really, even tho a muslims intent was to be good and please god, his standard varies with the christian who believes the muslims actions are unconstitutional.

His standards are not subjected to the Christian, but by God. Why do you believe that it is us that convicts and sets standards for these Muslims. If you have payed attention to the convo we had about the Ignorant and Benevolent muslim, you'd understand where I'm coming from. You either didn't take that into memory, or just asking me the same thing you asked me then.

you need to pay attention to your OWN thoughts while asking "why is this the norm" then follow that and say then why is THIS normal?
and you will see that you full assumption or "understanding" is but a dellusional assumption of what "reality" is.

According to who Hemp? To you?

i hope i dont have to explain anymore but knowing you, you gonna reply with "WHAT ARE U A MUSLIM OR NOT!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!", again.

We've been over this many times, I haven't asked you that question since last year.

 

[Hemp]

You're generalizing in this case Hemp, not all people are going to be like this. I could have been raised a Orthodox Jew, later to be a reformed Jew, then all of a sudden become a Buddhist.

Im not generalizing shit retard.
this is how ALL thoughts or should i say ASSUMPTIONS are made.
anything above the 5 senses we are really guessing on right?
just as the guess of the christian will differ from the muslims guess, based on their beliefs of what is, and whats NOT(standards n limits).
reality is just another dream, and i feel sorry for your weak awareness.
BUT YOU SHOUYLDNT WORRY!! THE BOOK WILL GUIDE YOU THROUGH LIFE.

His standards are not subjected to the Christian, but by God. Why do you believe that it is us that convicts and sets standards for these Muslims. If you have payed attention to the convo we had about the Ignorant and Benevolent muslim, you'd understand where I'm coming from. You either didn't take that into memory, or just asking me the same thing you asked me then.

WRONG AGAIN.
the people arent consciously setting their own standards, all they are doing is simply "attempting to understand the external reality 'as it is' ", only they just dont acknowledge how influenced their opinions are by their current beliefs.
remember that belief sets that standard.
see your current problem is you are NOT looking at current ppl that you know and their situations.

tell me, why are there so many muslims in lebanon but not buddhists?
now tell me what religion your dad, n his dad, and his dad, and his dad, were, then tell me their chances of converting to islam verses athiesm.
ok then now look at my dads religion, and his dads, and his dads.
isnt their free choice affected by their own experiences in life, or location, or teachings.

its all the same man i hate repeating myself.
too bad you, as a christian will never understand because just as i blinded myself as a muslim, so are you.

 

[2-0-NINE]

HAHA, THAT'S THE TYPICAL RESPONSE I GET FROM YOU. "STOCKTON YOU ARE BLIND" HAHA. That's all your going to say, so why the fuck even start up a convo with me if that's all you're going to do, give a lame redundant response. It's always like that.

 

[Hemp]

quit crying u fuckin teenie, i wasnt talkin shit, i was telling it like it is.


if you are stumped u just had to say so baby boy.

 

[2-0-NINE]

I'm usually a person who would admit to being stumped, but talking to you, is like talking to ThaG, it seems you have a personal vendetta with me. Still carrying over some zeal.