Can The Big Toe or Kobe really be considered for MVP?

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May 21, 2002
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#1
...just based on the fact that neither one can seem to pull it together without the other this year. I don't have enough interest to pull together that stats (maybe Nitro can step up here), but I'd like to see:

The Lakers record minus Shaq and then minus Kobe (if he's been out this year at all). If they have a winning record minus The Toe, then I'd say Kobe's on par at least. If not, then I believe that says more for Shaq's value than Bryant's. But then to counter that, you'd need their record with Shaq IN the lineup. Are they "winners"?

I don't know if I explained that well enough, but basically, can either one be considered a true MVP candidate if the team is only mediocre with OR without them?
 
May 19, 2002
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#2
HELL NO!!!!!!!! Both those marks aint winnin shit this year!!! Nitro and some of his other fantasy faker fans seem to think Ko-me will win it, but it wont happen and when he dont win it, Im clownin my ass off!! GOT EM!!!
 
May 21, 2002
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#3
Alright, well I peeped some surface stats and found the Lakers record to be a paltry 26-25 (I thought they were like 5 games up for some reason). A game and a half out the 8th spot (Houston owns the tie breaker). Kobe hasn't missed any games (51) and Shaq has played at least 38. I still need their record minus The Toe though.

Keep in mind some other marque players are doing better on their own with little to no support as well. Iverson's club is 28-24 (5th place), Garnet's is 33-20 (5th), or even consider Tim Duncan's 36-16 San Antonio Spurs (3rd).

Yo Nitro, get out your shovel dude.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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I explained this in another thread but ill make a much clearer attempt this time. Ill give you in detail the way the team is structured, and how it is different then other teams in the NBA.

Scenario 1: Take the Lakers without anyone on their team and they have $50mil to spend on players. They use $40mil on 2 superstar players, then $10mil on the rest of the team. In this case you have the entire team dependant on 2 players while the rest are just role players. Before anything let me go further into detail exactly what role players are. Fisher is the PG, and he averages 3apg throughout his career with the Lakers. An aspect that is lower then that of many centers. Their PF (Horry) averages just over 5rpg throughout his career. Do you guys think this is good? It has constantly been said that Iverson and McGrady "Single-Handedly" carry their team, and that’s why they should win it. Is this really true? Iverson has a PF that averages 17ppg and 8rpg through out his career, a PG who averages over 7apg and 10ppg. McKie averages 9 and 4, Thomas 9 and 7. When they went to the finals they had a center who is a 4 time defensive player of the year. These are truly positioned players. Now who really has “no one" on their team. Kobe is picking up the slack where these players lack, which is what is needed when you situate a team like this. Should the fact that this team is carried by two players, who can’t win without each other really effect their chances that much? Maybe they should be more recognized for how they do with what they have. The fact they this team can win a title with these two players should only be more reason that they both be considered MVP candidates.

The Good: When healthy the team does great, as you can see back to back to back titles was the outcome.
The Bad: One of the 2 superstars gets injured, the team cannot make up for it.

Weather or not each player can win without the other should have do effect on weather or not they are the MVP. Could Duncan in place of SHAQ win without Kobe? Absolutely not, but he is your MVP last year and a good chance this year. Now this leads me to the second scenario.


Scenario 2: Take the Sacramento Kings. Although it looks as if they are filled with a bunch of superstars, they are not. The spread there money around and purchased a bunch of solid players such as Bibby, Webber, Peja, Jackson, Christie and should I say Divac?

The Good: The absence of a single one of these players would not affect the team to great. It might put a damper in there post season run, but as far as how they play during the regular season (the basis of MVP voting) they are not greatly affected. For example, I showed you that the Kings actually played well without Webber.
The Bad: In order for this team (in the post season) to be successful, they ALL have to play good in a single game. If Webber and Peja have off nights, strike an L in the books. They are not dependant on each other; rather the team is dependant on the starting 5, and even some bench players in order to win.

As the Kings have a good record without Webber (with the exception of a few games this year) does this completely dismiss him from the MVP voting? Do you think the Kings would make it to the playoffs without Webber? I do, and you should know they would.

In conclusion, can you really leave out these players from MVP just because they are the two players that carry this team, and one can’t win without the other? The fact they one can’t win without the other only shows you how more valuable they actually are. I believe it falls under the category of common sense.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#5
Deep Thought said:
Keep in mind some other marque players are doing better on their own with little to no support as well. Iverson's club is 28-24 (5th place), Garnet's is 33-20 (5th), or even consider Tim Duncan's 36-16 San Antonio Spurs (3rd).
Little to no support? Let me ask you a question Deep. Look at Van Horn, Snow, McKie, even Coleman as of late, look how they have been playing. If you say the Sixers have "little to no" support, what would you consider Kobe's situation? They would actually have to be helping the opposing team in order to fit on your scale. Just because no one else on the sixers scores 20ppg, or averages a double double does NOT mean they dont have anyone. They have plenty, maybe not superstars, but MUCH better then what Kobe has without SHAQ. The names "Horry" and "FOX" are highly recognizable because lets face it, there on the Lakers who have won three in a row. Just because they are big names and not unheard of like the other players on the sixers, does not in anyway mean they are good. You guys are starting to believe your own bullshit. Make it easy on yourselves, put McGrady in place of both SHAQ and Kobe. You cant possibly think he would win. Iverson? give me a break, the Lakers with Iverson and no SHAQ/Kobe they would be lucky to win a fucking game.
 
May 19, 2002
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#6
Haha...yo deep, nitro always try to make it seems like guys like Iverson McGrady etc.. have tight fools on their teams!! It seems that everyone just about except for u nitro agree that Iverson, McGrady, Garnett etc.. are one man teams, except u!! I know it hurts to know that they can win alone, but Ko-Me cant!! Nice try but u lose. Yo deep the Fakerz are 3-10 without Shag!!! Ko-Me cant cut it without Shag there!!! No MVP's for either of those marks!! GOT EM!!!
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#7
KINGCZAR said:
Haha...yo deep, nitro always try to make it seems like guys like Iverson McGrady etc.. have tight fools on their teams!!
I have never in my life said they had tight fools on their team. I did however explain that they have better players then everyone thinks, nice of you to make up another argument.

KINGCZAR said:
It seems that everyone just about except for u nitro agree that Iverson, McGrady, Garnett etc.. are one man teams, except u!!
What do you consider a 1 man team, that is the question. 17ppg 8rpg is nothing (Van Horn)? The next best person beside Kobe is Horry, he averages less the 7 points per game, and 7 rebounds per game. There are players on all those teams that are providing more help then this.

KINGCZAR said:
Yo deep the Fakerz are 3-10 without Shag!!! Ko-Me cant cut it without Shag there!!!
No shit, thats what my entire post was saying idiot. Read it next time. "You Lose!" HAHA.

SCHOOLED!
 

BAMMER

Siccness Gray Hair
Apr 25, 2002
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#10
I'm just gonna be real and say,if the Lakers are a top5 team in the west,Kobe has a shot.Do I think he should be,NO.But alot of times these votes can be biased,and MVP does'nt mean best player all the time(see;Alex Rodriguez MLB).Shaq's been out to much,he has NO shot of winning it.Right now my honest vote would go......

Kevin Garnett(has no talent around him,GP20 could lock it up)
Tim Duncan(just do what he does)
Tracy McGrady(Has to win scoring title,and make 5-6 seed)
Chris Webber(has to play more though)
Jason Kidd(great numbers as usual,but ordinary for him)
Jermaine O'Neal(highly underated)
A.I.(must win division)
Paul Pierce(Has to finish top3 in scoring,unlikely)
Dirk Nowitzki(Needs to finish strong and beat Spurs)
Kobe Bryant(Can't be a #9 seed and win,and record w/o shaq is boo boo)
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#12
KINGCZAR said:
Ko-Me is booboo!! Cant carry a team like A.I., McGrady or Garnett!! GOT EM!!!
All your showing with that is your inability to be "real". Rather then reply to my argument in anyway, you simply display the topic in which I was commenting on. Its fun to shit talk with you and what not, but the fact that you cant kick some real shit is evident here. You have devoted your entire time and posts here in trying to get me and other Laker fans mad, and it isnt going to work. Its all good though, do your thang CZAR.

BAMMER said:
I'm just gonna be real and say,if the Lakers are a top5 team in the west,Kobe has a shot.Do I think he should be,NO.But alot of times these votes can be biased,and MVP does'nt mean best player all the time(see;Alex Rodriguez MLB).Shaq's been out to much,he has NO shot of winning it.Right now my honest vote would go......
Good shit man, I agree almost completely. What you said in a way goes along with what I was talking about. Lets say it was a 100% fact that Kobe was the best player in the NBA, everyone knew it, he still wouldnt have a winning record without SHAQ, cause the team is built around the two players. Everyone is quick to say that the teams are built around ONLY McGrady and Iverson, thats simply not true. The majority of the teams production comes from that player, but the other half is coming from all over, rather then from one other person like we have with the Lakers. Good shit, and I agree when you look at Kobes entire season thus far, he would NOT be the MVP with the existing system.
 
May 21, 2002
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#14
Well, after reviewing the thread it pretty much seems that in a good year, a dual MVP award would be warranted and in any other year, neither one is deserving? That about right Nitro? I really don't pay it (the MVP) much mind since it's about as accurate as the Coach of the Year or the All Star ballotting system.

I gotta say though, C-Webb nor Dirk have much chance to ever win the MVP. Both teams are just way too deep. They'll both pull a lot of votes, but in the end, it's still a popularity contest.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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jus because someones stats on paper are weak doesn't mean they are weak.... the lakers have decent role players so you can't say that shaq and kobe have NO ONE around them...the reason why the lakers role players can't put up good numbers is because shaq and kobe get the rock on damn near every run up the court...either shaq is gettin the ball for the high % shot or kobe is takin the shot because he's a ball hog (yea he may be avg 6.5 apg but only because some writer called him out on that and now he thinks he has to prove something)...but you still can't say the lakers have worse role players than the magic, 76ers, or twolves.....the lakers have some shooters...jus look at all the 3 pt threats they have, fish, horry, fox, murray, shaw...and they're bench isn't that bad, george is starting to improve he can take it to the whole hard...horry can't really bang inside but samaki can, and avg over 7 boards a game which is good considering the pt he gets....

kobe is ballin right now yes, he's sharing the rock, grabbin 7 boards a game, and scoring 30 a night, but his team canot win without shaq, and since he is the OTHER superstar on the team the spotlight is on him when shaq is out...if your team can't win then you will not be MVP...he is a legitimate candidate, but will not win it...and as for shaq, he is the most dominant player in the league right now, but no one should walk away with the mvp missing more than 15 games in a season (it's only 13 now but with that toe he's gon miss at least 5 more games...)

 
Apr 25, 2002
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#16
KINGCZAR said:
Naw homie Ko-Me has more talent around him that McGrady or Iverson when Shag is out! U just try to downplay it, but its ok. Ko-Me is aight, nuthin special!! GOT EM!!!
Then explain to me why? I dont see how thats so hard.

Deep Thought said:
Well, after reviewing the thread it pretty much seems that in a good year, a dual MVP award would be warranted and in any other year, neither one is deserving? That about right Nitro?


No. In the past three championship years, which were clearly "good years", I dont believe Kobe was a top MVP candidate although he put up great numbers. Let me correct your post to better fit what I was saying.

"Well, after reviewing the thread it pretty much seems that in a good year, both Kobe and SHAQ should be amongst the top candidates for MVP, and in any other year, neither one is deserving according to the MVP system that exists in the NBA? That about right Nitro?"

RevoL said:
jus because someones stats on paper are weak doesn't mean they are weak.... the lakers have decent role players so you can't say that shaq and kobe have NO ONE around them...the reason why the lakers role players can't put up good numbers is because shaq and kobe get the rock on damn near every run up the court...either shaq is gettin the ball for the high % shot or
When I said no one when speaking about the Lakers, it was in comparison to the ideas of other people on how the sixers have "no one". I believe they are decent, never denied that, but not as good as what McGrady or Iverson have. To sum it all up in a short sentence what I was implying ill say it like this. Neither McGrady, Iverson, Webber nor Duncan can lead a Lakers team single handedly without SHAQ/Kobe to any real victory as they are doing with their current team..

RevoL said:
kobe is takin the shot because he's a ball hog
Why because he shoots a lot? Please explain to me a simple question. Why wasnt Jordan considered selfish? Or do you think he was. You see, he averaged more shot attempts in certain years that Kobe ever has, or ever will for that matter. He had plenty of games where he shot 40-50 times in a game. He has no one else on his team that can shoot it right? If thats your answer, then tell me why they went to the playoffs without him. Shooting %? Nope, Kobe is atop with guards in that department (better then McGrady and WAY better then Iverson) [I would really like to hear an answer, I dont get to many run-ins with people who can actually argue any of what their saying on this board]

RevoL said:
but you still can't say the lakers have worse role players than the magic, 76ers, or twolves.....the lakers have some shooters...jus look at all the 3 pt threats they have, fish, horry, fox, murray, shaw...and they're bench isn't that bad, george is starting to improve he can take it to the whole hard...horry can't really bang inside but samaki can, and avg over 7 boards a game which is good considering the pt he gets....
Your right they have a decent bench, but they arent doing much, while the players on those other teams are chippin in. With time and expierence this Laker team would learn to play without SHAQ and win.

RevoL said:
kobe is ballin right now yes, he's sharing the rock, grabbin 7 boards a game, and scoring 30 a night, but his team canot win without shaq, and since he is the OTHER superstar on the team the spotlight is on him when shaq is out...if your team can't win then you will not be MVP...he is a legitimate candidate, but will not win it...and as for shaq, he is the most dominant player in the league right now, but no one should walk away with the mvp missing more than 15 games in a season (it's only 13 now but with that toe he's gon miss at least 5 more games
I agree completely, good writing.
 
May 21, 2002
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#19
RevoL said:
kobe is ballin right now yes, he's sharing the rock, grabbin 7 boards a game, and scoring 30 a night, but his team canot win without shaq, and since he is the OTHER superstar on the team the spotlight is on him when shaq is out...if your team can't win then you will not be MVP...he is a legitimate candidate, but will not win it...and as for shaq, he is the most dominant player in the league right now, but no one should walk away with the mvp missing more than 15 games in a season (it's only 13 now but with that toe he's gon miss at least 5 more games...)
Thanks RevoL. Best response so far.
 
May 15, 2002
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#20
Kobe shouldnt even be a part of the MVP race because he proved to us earlier this season that he cant carry a team. Winning the MVP is about more than putting up big numbers. Its about carrying your team, making a difference. To me, the top candidates for MVP are...Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan and Jason Kidd. All of those players are "LEADERS" on their teams and their making a difference. Until Kobe learns how to carry a team, he'll never be MVP and there's more to MVP than leading the team in scoring.