Bourgeois, upper class, white folks, etc.

[WHITE DEVIL]

I hear a decent amount of this perspective here and elsewhere.

Can real progress exist in the face of classism or delineating others as less or more worthy of carrying a cause as you?

Can real progress exist when arbitrary barriers exist between a core and those who wish to participate in a cause?

Or is exclusion a gift, and selection a boon to advancement?

 

[1/2 On It]

how can you climb if there isn't any ladder?

 

[TOKZTLI]

why are whites AUTOMATICALLY considered bourg, there is the stumbling block to begin with. Itsnot about a race, its about social position.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Can real progress exist in the face of classism or delineating others as less or more worthy of carrying a cause as you?

I don’t entirely understand your question. Can you rephrase or elaborate?

 

[BaSICCally]

What is progress?

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Can you make real progress while excluding others?

 

[MEXCOM]

Define real progress.

 

[1/2 On It]

hes saying is it possible to progress if certain races or classes are already pre-defined their rung on the ladder...... which he already knows the answer to... its just his twist on the question........ 'of course not' is the answer... he worded it so that this can be the only answer.

 

[BaSICCally]

Tell me why I should want to "progress" to be of the upper class?

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Wrong.

I'm saying, if you call your movement or idea "untouchable" for a certain class...

i.e. "rich people, Southerners, white people aren't allowed to help me/join the cause"

Can you still be a serious force with real prospect for change?

 

[BaSICCally]

No.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Can you make real progress while excluding others?

Absolutely.

Historically progressive movements have always excluded the rich or upper class. Take America in the 60’s and 70’s for example. The anti-war movement, civil rights movement etc. were composed of the youth, the proletariat, and the poor. The bourgeoisie did everything they could to suppress these movements but ultimately failed.

Of course, the best example is the October Revolution where for the first time in history, the proletariat overthrew the rich ruling elite. Another is the peasant army led by Mao Tse Tung.

It is however, bad judgment to exclude a particular race from a movement. While certain issues may unquestionably be specific to one group of people, (blacks, Latinos, even women’s rights) it is seriously less affective to isolate your cause. Countless failures of radical groups during progressive movements who foolishly were unwilling to work with other groups can be found throughout history. It’s vital for groups to find common ground and to work together rather than be isolated.

 

[BaSICCally]

No, the white or upper class controls the needed resources for real progress. Resources to produce "real progress". No matter what a lower class uprising will have to face the upper class. The lower class or the revolutionaries will have to prove to the upper class to change.

Just like a employee proving to his boss that he is worthy of a raise or a promotion.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I disagree completely. Sure, while the upper class controls the wealth, you must remember they are the minority and when mass movements occur, the upper class is forced to give into the demands of the people. Time after time again throughout history this has been the case.

It was under Nixon when the Vietnam War ended; Abortion rights were won; affirmative action was passed; the Environmental Protection Agency was enacted; workplace safety standards were increased; the expansion of welfare benefits, etc. This wasn’t because Nixon was some kind-hearted progressive president, no on the contrary; he was as right-wing as they come. It was the Black revolt, the anti-war movement, wildcat strikes, and the women's liberation movement that FORCED the Nixon administration to pass these reforms to ward off a revolutionary challenge to the capitalist system.

And as I mentioned before, the October Revolution has already proven progress can be made without the rich ruling elite.

 

[ValleyPainProduct]

yeah but thas why Bush n Co takin over shit......wit homeland security and the Patriot Act, never again will the lower class "minorities" have a chance to be a violent threat.....they gonna continue to do whatever they can politically and once folks get tired of tryin to make the system work theyll realize its too late for a violent means cuz youll be labeled a terrorist for any actions considiered anti government or un patriotic......trust me the upper class has smart people on the payroll to figure all this shit out and plan way ahead....since before most of us were born this plan has been in effect.....

 

[ColdBlooded]

Depends on what you define as progress. Various movements define it differently.

If you're in a proletarian movement attempting to create a classless society then the elimination of the Bourgeois Class is necessary because they stand in the way of said progress. Even many proletarian movements don't call for total elimination of all Bourgeois "people", just their class, and believe that a select group will realize the error of their ways and join the proletariat in creating a more equitable society.

The Nazi's put a great deal of stress on a racial society. You may disagree with what their goal was, but to them the elimination of whole races and the triumph of the Arian race was progress. Did Germany progress beyond post WWI Germany under Nazi rule? Depends on your criteria for progress, if it's only based on social/racial relations then maybe not, but if it is based on economic/military/political power then it's hard to argue.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I agree that the present time is nothing like the 60’s and 70’s but the level of class consciousness can change in very short periods of time. Remember, the largest protest in American history occurred only 3 years ago immediately after the “Partial Birth Abortion Ban” where 1.25 million men and women protested in Washington D.C.
There is a HUGE social divide amongst Americans and day by day more people are challenging Bush. Bush currently only has around 52% approval ratings, the majority of Americans opposes the Iraq war and believes they were lied to and the overwhelming majority of Americans are dissatisfied with our Economy. Things are only going to get worse –attacks on the working class will escalate and the American Economy is in great danger which is steadily falling to shit. All of these issues have already provoked millions of Americans not only to oppose Bush, but to challenge our very system and this will only continue.

The upper class cannot continue at this pace forever. America will fall. The only question is whether or not we will move towards Socialism or Barbarism.