Black Lives Matter??? To who?

[BUTCHER 206]

Good because if u can't even address any of my points, then this isn't even a debate..


GO RAMS!

I very clearly addressed your point, by breaking down what I believe is the basis of your "all blacks are systematically oppressed" argument, or at least what I think is the basis of it since you offered no explanation or way to prove that claim, (this 2.5x more likely statistic) vs the thinking behind "what about black on black murders" (when you claim ~112 murders on average annually is systematic oppression and an epidemic, but there's this glaring FORTY TO ONE set of numbers, 4,472 black on black murders, it's very clear and undeniable that it is a smaller problem compared to the a much larger problem of black violence, FORTY TIMES LARGER problem) then I left you with a question, that you failed to address. I asked you how is that racist and how is it trying to shift the topic? I asked you to expand on your point.

You're saying citing those numbers is a tool to distract from the conversation, and maybe you have encountered racists who have thrown that data out to derail or try to end the conversation, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I was asking you why you believe it is racist to bring those numbers up.

I asked because I don't think it's a racist distraction at all, and disagree with you. Because I think cop on black violence is part of a trickle down effect of a larger problem of black violence, and both are interconnected and need to be solved at the same time. I accept that police bias is real and police are more on edge with young black males; that's undeniable and inarguable, but it seems to be especially concentrated in areas where there is a large black populace, cities where its 60%+ black, and want to know why it's like that. I offered statistics frequently cited by the Right (and admittedly by racists), specifically that young black males are 3% of the total US population yet are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime and homicides against police officers as one of the possible explanations for this police bias, but I never claimed that as my stance. I don't have a stance because ultimately the problem has to be solved, and problems don't get solved when people are divided amongst tribes which is what's happened and what I'm trying to warn about and break this thread away from. Because the problem is not going to be solved with some body cameras and sensitivity training and rooting out the bad cops and prosecuting every act of police abuse of power; that's only a beginning and one small part of the equation.

Are we on the same page?

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

What is the message and goal of black lives matter?

That "Black Lives Matter"; the systematic profiling and killing and beating of black lives by police has to be stopped because it's out of control, it's "an epidemic". Furthermore there are those (mostly uneducated sheeple or violent criminals with untreated mental illness that are easily manipulated by tribalist echo chambers) that take it step further and say that there needs to be a violent revolution where "they" fight back against "them" ala guerilla terrorism warfare against the police, or by burning down and looting businesses.

The numbers don't paint the same picture. When 4,472 young black men were murdered by other young black men between 01/01/09 - 12/31/12, compared to 112 justified / unjustified combined annual police homicides, it becomes clear where the real epidemic is. 97.5% or 40:1 black on black homicide vs police on black homicide. But I guess looking at the actual numbers then wondering why those 97.5% of Black Lives lost isn't being talked about is inconvenient? Or racist? Or what was your point

Oh well just keep ignoring it i guess. We'll talk about it again in 4 years

You're not even keeping the "facts" in your own post straight lol, you compared a 4 year homicide total to a 1 year total of police-committed homicides against blacks which is not remotely linear year-to-year either. Police have killed nearly 200 black people up through July of this year alone and over 260 last year, where are you getting "112" from? If you were to take a real 4 year spread of police-committed homicides against blacks that number is a lot closer to 1,000 black people killed by police which is 4:1. Your argument is weak bullshit to begin with.

 

[Face-Me]

I very clearly addressed your point, by breaking down what I believe is the basis of your "all blacks are systematically oppressed" argument, or at least what I think is the basis of it since you offered no explanation or way to prove that claim, (this 2.5x more likely statistic) vs the thinking behind "what about black on black murders" (when you claim ~112 murders on average annually is systematic oppression and an epidemic, but there's this glaring FORTY TO ONE set of numbers, 4,472 black on black murders, it's very clear and undeniable that it is a smaller problem compared to the a much larger problem of black violence, FORTY TIMES LARGER problem) then I left you with a question, that you failed to address. I asked you how is that racist and how is it trying to shift the topic? I asked you to expand on your point.

You're saying citing those numbers is a tool to distract from the conversation, and maybe you have encountered racists who have thrown that data out to derail or try to end the conversation, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I was asking you why you believe it is racist to bring those numbers up.

I asked because I don't think it's a racist distraction at all, and disagree with you. Because I think cop on black violence is part of a trickle down effect of a larger problem of black violence, and both are interconnected and need to be solved at the same time. I accept that police bias is real and police are more on edge with young black males; that's undeniable and inarguable, but it seems to be especially concentrated in areas where there is a large black populace, cities where its 60%+ black, and want to know why it's like that. I offered statistics frequently cited by the Right (and admittedly by racists), specifically that young black males are 3% of the total US population yet are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime and homicides against police officers as one of the possible explanations for this police bias, but I never claimed that as my stance. I don't have a stance because ultimately the problem has to be solved, and problems don't get solved when people are divided amongst tribes which is what's happened and what I'm trying to warn about and break this thread away from. Because the problem is not going to be solved with some body cameras and sensitivity training and rooting out the bad cops and prosecuting every act of police abuse of power; that's only a beginning and one small part of the equation.

Are we on the same page?

Dude what the fuck is black on black violence even? When whites kill whites, do we call it white on white violence? how bout Hispanics killing eachother? This entire black on black violence narrative is just a way to divert attention from the social injustice that black folks are facing with systematic oppression .. Is gang violence where blacks kill eachother an issue in this country? Yes..... But it doesnt some how make it okay for racist cops to shoot unarmed black folks who they most likely woulda never shot had they been white .. This dumbass black on black talking point is just a way for white folks to deflect and make themselves feel blameless. Don't be like that homie .. Especially if you're white, it just makes u look like a dipshit who doesn't want to relate to what it's like for black people to live in America under a system that simply treats them as less .. It's like if a school shooting happened by some white kid and then people tried to shift the talking point to "well what about white on white violence? More white people kill eachother than white people die in school shootings!!!!" It's flat out retarded, and yes, racist, be it subconscious or not .. Furthermore, in this instance, it is far worse, because we are talking about the people who are put here to SERVE AND PROTECT us killing black folks in statistically staggering numbers ....... So while yes, "black on black" violence is also an issue, it simply shouldn't be connected or a means to justify the issue of the racism that goes on within law enforcement. Basically, the cops who are killing black folks are flat out cowards who shouldn't be cops in the first place.. Do U agree there?


Also while u may think there's a connection, there simply isn't .. Because more white people kill eachother than black people, but we never hear the term "white on white violence" or never use it as a talking point to divert from
acts of senseless killings against white people .. The black on black violence narrative is something that has been subconsciously implanted in your brain and it needs to stop being brought up when we talkin about cops killing civilians. It's a cop out for many and can easily be misconstrued as an excuse for what's goin on brodie.

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

Dude what the fuck is black on black violence even? When whites kill whites, do we call it white on white violence? how bout Hispanics killing eachother? This entire black on black violence narrative is just a way to divert attention from the social injustice that black folks are facing with systematic oppression .. Is gang violence where blacks kill eachother an issue in this country? Yes..... But it doesnt some how make it okay for racist cops to shoot unarmed black folks who they most likely woulda never shot had they been white .. This dumbass black on black talking point is just a way for white folks to deflect and make themselves feel blameless. Don't be like that homie .. Especially if you're white, it just makes u look like a dipshit who doesn't want to relate to what it's like for black people to live in America under a system that simply treats them as less .. It's like if a school shooting happened by some white kid and then people tried to shift the talking point to "well what about white on white violence? More white people kill eachother than white people die in school shootings!!!!" It's flat out retarded, and yes, racist, be it subconscious or not .. Furthermore, in this instance, it is far worse, because we are talking about the people who are put here to SERVE AND PROTECT us killing black folks in statistically staggering numbers ....... So while yes, "black on black" violence is also an issue, it simply shouldn't be connected or a means to justify the issue of the racism that goes on within law enforcement. Basically, the cops who are killing black folks are flat out cowards who shouldn't be cops in the first place.. Do U agree there?


Also while u may think there's a connection, there simply isn't .. Because more white people kill eachother than black people, but we never hear the term "white on white violence" or never use it as a talking point to divert from
acts of terrorism or acts of senseless killings .. The black on black violence narrative is something that has been subconsciously implanted in your brain and it needs to stop being brought up when we talkin about cops killing civilians. It's a cop out for many and can easily be misconstrued as an excuse for what's goin on brodie.

His numbers are bullshit anyway bruh, let him be ignorant.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

You're not even keeping the "facts" in your own post straight lol, you compared a 4 year homicide total to a 1 year total of police-committed homicides against blacks which is not remotely linear year-to-year either. Police have killed nearly 200 black people up through July of this year alone and over 260 last year, where are you getting "112" from? If you were to take a real 4 year spread of police-committed homicides against blacks that number is a lot closer to 1,000 black people killed by police which is 4:1. Your argument is weak bullshit to begin with.

You should've read my next post; I said why I cited those numbers. I told you that's an annual average over that period, which is a 4 year period, which means the number is 448. I specifically said those numbers are numbers being cited by the right, but I believe it's an incomplete possibly untrue set of numbers being used to fit an agenda, then said that's not my stance. I explicitly said I'm waiting on the next set of FBI Crime Statistics, which is inarguable and the most complete set of data, which will be expanded with more information once NIBRS is implemented across law enforcement agencies across America.

Everything you asked you could've just read the answers in my posts, but you came in without the ability to discuss, and ignored that I was trying to present information from both viewpoints, because you wanted to argue and make it a hard-line issue.

Your reading comprehension is pathetic and I don't believe you graduated from high school.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

Dude what the fuck is black on black violence even? When whites kill whites, do we call it white on white violence? how bout Hispanics killing eachother? This entire black on black violence narrative is just a way to divert attention from the social injustice that black folks are facing with systematic oppression .. Is gang violence where blacks kill eachother an issue in this country? Yes..... But it doesnt some how make it okay for racist cops to shoot unarmed black folks who they most likely woulda never shot had they been white .. This dumbass black on black talking point is just a way for white folks to deflect and make themselves feel blameless. Don't be like that homie .. Especially if you're white, it just makes u look like a dipshit who doesn't want to relate to what it's like for black people to live in America under a system that simply treats them as less .. It's like if a school shooting happened by some white kid and then people tried to shift the talking point to "well what about white on white violence? More white people kill eachother than white people die in school shootings!!!!" It's flat out retarded, and yes, racist, be it subconscious or not .. Furthermore, in this instance, it is far worse, because we are talking about the people who are put here to SERVE AND PROTECT us killing black folks in statistically staggering numbers ....... So while yes, "black on black" violence is also an issue, it simply shouldn't be connected or a means to justify the issue of the racism that goes on within law enforcement. Basically, the cops who are killing black folks are flat out cowards who shouldn't be cops in the first place.. Do U agree there?


Also while u may think there's a connection, there simply isn't .. Because more white people kill eachother than black people, but we never hear the term "white on white violence" or never use it as a talking point to divert from
acts of senseless killings against white people .. The black on black violence narrative is something that has been subconsciously implanted in your brain and it needs to stop being brought up when we talkin about cops killing civilians. It's a cop out for many and can easily be misconstrued as an excuse for what's goin on brodie.

White people do not kill other white people at the rate that black people kill other black people. You might be confused because you saw raw numbers. Let me show you some recent numbers from 2013

[ame]https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls[/ame]

~3000 white homicide victims by ~2500 white offenders. ~2500 black homicide victims by ~2200 black offenders.

Oh look, there's gotta be a white on white crime problem since the numbers are bigger? Oh wait.. what were those 2010 census numbers?

310 million total people in the united states,
197 million are White which is ~64%
38 million are Black which is ~13%

When there are 5x the amount of whites to black, yet the numbers are borderline the same, ah hell fuck it im out

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

You should've read my next post; I said why I cited those numbers. I told you that's an annual average over that period, which is a 4 year period, which means the number is 448. I specifically said those numbers are numbers being cited by the right, but I believe it's an incomplete possibly untrue set of numbers being used to fit an agenda, then said that's not my stance. I explicitly said I'm waiting on the next set of FBI Crime Statistics, which is inarguable and the most complete set of data, which will be expanded with more information once NIBRS is implemented across law enforcement agencies across America.

Everything you asked you could've just read the answers in my posts, but you came in without the ability to discuss, and ignored that I was trying to present information from both viewpoints, because you wanted to argue and make it a hard-line issue.

Your reading comprehension is pathetic and I don't believe you graduated from high school.

It obviously is your stance or you wouldn't have cited the same bullshit again in yet another post to make the same bogus point:

I very clearly addressed your point, by breaking down what I believe is the basis of your "all blacks are systematically oppressed" argument, or at least what I think is the basis of it since you offered no explanation or way to prove that claim, (this 2.5x more likely statistic) vs the thinking behind "what about black on black murders" (when you claim ~112 murders on average annually is systematic oppression and an epidemic, but there's this glaring FORTY TO ONE set of numbers, 4,472 black on black murders, it's very clear and undeniable that it is a smaller problem compared to the a much larger problem of black violence, FORTY TIMES LARGER problem) then I left you with a question, that you failed to address. I asked you how is that racist and how is it trying to shift the topic? I asked you to expand on your point.

Your comparison is bogus, comparing a 4 year set of data to a 1 year set of data that you've failed to even cite a source for is lazy posting on your part and borderline trolling. At best you simply misinterpreted the data you posted and you're tryna tell me about my reading comprehension rofl, fuck outta here.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

I see what you're saying now, thanks for clearing that up. I did do that huh lol

I got lost in typing forever and revising and editing my post trying to keep it clean and consise. I started out just wanting to ask a question to Face-Me then got sidetracked and here I am multiple paragraphs deep into this

 

[BUTCHER 206]

Nevertheless I think you're focusing too much on some numbers that I lazily threw out there.

If you'd like to post the exact numbers, from a source other than HuffPo, which is a click-bait aggravate and they literally cited a source that was citing a source, that'd be helpful. I think the FBI Crime Summary reports are only accurate up to 2013 and everything else is just kind of an unclear picture. For example, the Washington Post has been keeping better track than Law Enforcement Agencies and may have a more accurate total number of deaths, but they're not infallible either and frequently misresent the numbers by including those who died while in contact with law enforcement as those who were actually gunned down by police while unarmed.

I'm ultimately trying to drive the discussion here towards solutions; we've already been through the anger phase and the outrage phase months ago in the cop hate thread

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

What is this "1 year set of data" that you're saying I'm trying to claim? These are the same numbers from the same 4 year period.

You claim that the average number of black people killed by police each year is ~114 and you're comparing that 1 year average to a 4 year set of data to reach your 40:1 bullshit. In case you forgot what you typed:

4,472 young black men were murdered by other young black men between 01/01/09 - 12/31/12

And I'll say it again, where did you get ~114 from? The last three years have more than doubled that average annually. If you got that number from the same study you got the 4,472 statistic from then cite the study.

 

[Face-Me]

White people do not kill other white people at the rate that black people kill other black people. You might be confused because you saw raw numbers. Let me show you some recent numbers from 2013

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

~3000 white homicide victims by ~2500 white offenders. ~2500 black homicide victims by ~2200 black offenders.

Oh look, there's gotta be a white on white crime problem since the numbers are bigger? Oh wait.. what were those 2010 census numbers?

310 million total people in the united states,
197 million are White which is ~64%
38 million are Black which is ~13%

When there are 5x the amount of whites to black, yet the numbers are borderline the same, ah hell fuck it im out

But why do u think black people kill eachother at a higher rate? Is it because they are worse people? Or perhaps it has a little something to do with the systematic oppression we talkin about in the first place? .... furthermore, in what way does this justify the killings of unarmed blacks by police? It simple doesn't .. So those dumbass talking points need to be killed bruh. Unless u wanna continue lookin like a white supremacist who doesn't understand how deep the roots of these social injustices truly are. Your choice.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

You claim that the average number of black people killed by police each year is ~114 and you're comparing that 1 year average to a 4 year set of data to reach your 40:1 bullshit. In case you forgot what you typed:



And I'll say it again, where did you get ~114 from? The last three years have more than doubled that average annually. If you got that number from the same study you got the 4,472 statistic from then cite the study.

You're right, I did do that.

Easy Access to NIBRS Victims: Victims of Violence Selection Page


Here is where the numbers came from; look to 09-12 and total them

 

[BUTCHER 206]

But why do u think black people kill eachother at a higher rate? Is it because they are worse people? Or perhaps it has a little something to do with the systematic oppression we talkin about in the first place? .... furthermore, in what way does this justify the killings of unarmed blacks by police? It simple doesn't .. So those dumbass talking points need to be killed bruh. Unless u wanna continue lookin like a white supremacist who doesn't understand how deep the roots of these social injustices truly are. Your choice.

I believe it is due to systematic oppression, but not by the police. Police are the scape-goat, they're simply an extension of the government and the majority are just some people doing a job. Sure there are small-dicked typical redneck fucks that get into it to abuse the power, but not every cop is bad just like every black person is not a criminal. So who has been in office the past 8 years in this country, while the numbers are climbing? I mean just look to every major black city where there are crime problems like St Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington D.C., and tell me who's running the show there. It's not hard to figure out. Democrats are the greatest enemy to black people. They've exploited them for decades and have successfully destroyed any individuality within by creating these problems of poverty, drugs, failed education systems, failed mental health systems, there are hundreds of ways the democrats control the black populace through spoon-fed tribalist mentality. They create problems and sell the solutions to the problem; only they don't actually use that money to fix anything, and eventually the city dies from the inside out like cancer. I mean just look at what happened recently with Detroit's water system

 

[BUTCHER 206]

For the record I don't identify as republican; I'm done taking sides. Shit's a joke

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

Nevertheless I think you're focusing too much on some numbers that I lazily threw out there.

If you'd like to post the exact numbers, from a source other than HuffPo, which is a click-bait aggravate and they literally cited a source that was citing a source, that'd be helpful. I think the FBI Crime Summary reports are only accurate up to 2013 and everything else is just kind of an unclear picture. For example, the Washington Post has been keeping better track than Law Enforcement Agencies and may have a more accurate total number of deaths, but they're not infallible either and frequently misresent the numbers by including those who died while in contact with law enforcement as those who were actually gunned down by police while unarmed.

I'm ultimately trying to drive the discussion here towards solutions; we've already been through the anger phase and the outrage phase months ago in the cop hate thread

Here's another source that puts the total count of people killed by the police last year around 300 people higher than the Washington Post's count:

The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian

According to them, 306 black people were killed by police officers in 2015 and 194 black people have been killed by police so far this year. The combined total between last year and through today of this year is already +52 to that average you cited originally and this year isn't even over yet, the 4 year average based on the current data is trending towards an average of ~250+ a year.

 

[Face-Me]

I believe it is due to systematic oppression, but not by the police. Police are the scape-goat, they're simply an extension of the government and the majority are just some people doing a job. Sure there are small-dicked typical redneck fucks that get into it to abuse the power, but not every cop is bad just like every black person is not a criminal. So who has been in office the past 8 years in this country, while the numbers are climbing? I mean just look to every major black city where there are crime problems like St Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington D.C., and tell me who's running the show there. It's not hard to figure out. Democrats are the greatest enemy to black people. They've exploited them for decades and have successfully destroyed any individuality within by creating these problems of poverty, drugs, failed education systems, failed mental health systems, there are hundreds of ways the democrats control the black populace through spoon-fed tribalist mentality. They create problems and sell the solutions to the problem; only they don't actually use that money to fix anything, and eventually the city dies from the inside out like cancer. I mean just look at what happened recently with Detroit's water system

Police are just pawns, and no, they're not all bad .. But the ones committing these murders are and shoulda never been in power to begin with. That's all there is to it.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

Here's another source that puts the total count of people killed by the police last year around 300 people higher than the Washington Post's count:

The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian

According to them, 306 black people were killed by police officers in 2015 and 194 black people have been killed by police so far this year. The combined total between last year and through today of this year is already +52 to that average you cited originally and this year isn't even over yet, the 4 year average based on the current data is trending towards an average of ~250+ a year.

I concede to your points; the 09-12 numbers are inaccurate and I tried to explain that with my NIBRS post, and said I would have a better argument once this system is expanded and the numbers are updated to be more current. That is actually the reason the Guardian and the Washington Post began tracking those numbers independently, because the FBI numbers are majorly lagging and missing a lot of data that simply isn't shared from certain law enforcement agencies that haven't shared that data either because their systems are too archaic or I don't know. Ask the government why they can't give this information out in a timely manner, I'm sure Hillary will promise to make it immediately available if given the budget money for it, and I guarantee you that money will not be used to actually do that. It might've already been asked for and mismanaged or finagled multiple times already lol

 

[Fruitvale_Mac]

I concede to your points; the 09-12 numbers are inaccurate and I tried to explain that with my NIBRS post, and said I would have a better argument once this system is expanded and the numbers are updated to be more current. That is actually the reason the Guardian and the Washington Post began tracking those numbers independently, because the FBI numbers are majorly lagging and missing a lot of data that simply isn't shared from certain law enforcement agencies that haven't shared that data either because their systems are too archaic or I don't know. Ask the government why they can't give this information out in a timely manner, I'm sure Hillary will promise to make it immediately available if given the budget money for it, and I guarantee you that money will not be used to actually do that. It might've already been asked for and mismanaged or finagled multiple times already lol

Given that we have an outside count/context for the stats though we can examine your original point again. If the 4 year total of 4,472 black on black homicides is accurate and the average from that (~1,118) is accurate, the actual annual ratio of black on black killings vs police killings of black people (~250) is more like 4:1. Frankly that deads the point imo... There are around 765,000 sworn officers in the United States and (using the ~250 average) the rate they're killing black people (32/100,000) is far higher than the rate that black people are killing black people in the US (3/100,000). Even if you used the black homicide data from this source which puts the black on black homicide count at 2,447 in 2011, the rate that cops are killing black people per 100,000 is 5x higher (32/100,000 vs. 6.59/100,000).

In other words, if you put a black man or woman in a room with 1 armed cop and 5 armed black people, that single cop is as likely to kill that black person as the other 5 black people are. This becomes even worse when you factor in the fact that that same cop is more than likely not going to be arrested for it let alone convicted.

 

[BUTCHER 206]

I agree, but you have to be careful that you're not equating police to citizens. Police are not citizens, they are agents of the government performing a job who deal with violent criminals, so of course the numbers are going to be high to begin with even without any nefarious element there. IMO the numbers are climbing because the mental health systems and drug rehabilitation systems have been destroyed by republicans who seem to favor prison systems instead, then democrats came in and failed to fix it / made it worse, so it's to the point where police officers are now the first responders to violent mental breakdowns with people who are armed. They're simply not trained well enough or smart enough to do it in the majority of instances and simply kill so they are not killed. That may be arguable, but would you take a risk with your life on the line? What if you taser doesn't deploy correctly or what if you miss? They're frequently running on adrenaline and scared out of their minds and only have a fraction of time to make the decision, and they're taught to make that decision to shoot.

So i agree with what you're saying and it was a good point made clearly, with better numbers than I've been presenting, but I think at the end there that comparison that a cop in the same room 5 blacks etc., is skewed. You have to take out those cases of mental illness or drug psychosis or suicide by cop, and you take out the justified homicides where it was actually truly a case of a guy you don't want on the streets, murdering whoever and doing some crazy shit and shooting it out with the police, I think that number shrinks significantly.

But yes, overall I agree with the sentiment. There's no reason to be executing citizens and the numbers need to come down, and there needs to be significant police reform most definitely. Police do need to be prosecuted more often, I was especially adamant about Ian Birk being prosecuted for murdering John T. Williams here in Seattle and am disgusted he basically murdered him for no reason and was slapped on the wrist for it and think he didn't pay nearly enough.

 

[OuijaBoard]

anyone here ever dance with the devil in the pale moon light ?