Because the Bible Tells Me So?

[JLMACN]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaithMatters/Story?id=4467337&page=1

Because the Bible Tells Me So?
During Private Museum Tours, Denver Children Learn About Creationism

By BRIAN ROONEY and MELIA PATRIA
March 19, 2008

Standing in the lobby of the Denver Museum of Nature & Science, Bill Jack and Rusty Carter pointed to the enormous teeth on the reproduced skeleton of a Tyrannosaurs Rex, and told a group of children and their parents that the fearsome T-Rex was really a vegetarian.

They said the T-Rex was vegetarian because at the time of the Creation, there was no such thing as death, so a T-Rex could not have eaten meat. There was no death until Adam and Eve ate forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, they continued, and God's revenge was to curse the world with death.

Jack asked, "If this creature was designed to eat meat from the very start, what would he have to do until Adam and Eve sinned and death entered the world? What would he have to do?" The children replied in chorus, "Starve."

"Fast and pray for The Fall. Is that likely?" Jack asked. "The answer is, everyone look at me and say, 'No.' Try that with me.'"

"No!" the children replied.


Jesus: The Designer and Creator
Jack and Carter operate what they call BC Tours: "BC" stands for Biblically Correct. They take paying customers on tours of such places as the Denver Museum, the zoo, and fossil sites, giving an explanation of nature, biology and paleontology with a strictly Biblical interpretation. They lead 100 tours a year and have reached thousands of children since starting their company in 1988.

"We believe Jesus is our designer and our creator of everything that was ever made," Carter tells the group of about 30 home-schooled Christian children and parents.

Known as "young Earth creationists," Jack and Carter say the Bible tells them Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old. In the scientific community, the earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old. Jack and Carter describe both Creationism and the theory of evolution as "philosophies" and "world views" that are essentially on a par with each other; it's just a question of which you choose.

They believe that the life that populates Earth is not the product of billions of years of evolution, but created by God in six 24 hour days. And they believe Adam and Eve walked the Earth with dinosaurs, and that all the dinosaur fossils found all over the world are probably the result of one catastrophic event, such as Noah's flood, and not 4.5 billion years of life and death.

A 2007 Gallup Poll found that more Americans accept the theory of creationism than evolution. When those surveyed were asked about their views on the origins of life, 66 percent said creation, defined as "the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years," is probably or definitely true. In comparison, 53 percent said evolution, defined as "the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life," is probably or definitely true.

Carter asked the children, "Is evolution a religion?" and they replied "Yes."

"Yes it's a religious belief," Carter said. "It's a philosophy."

'Propaganda'
They dismiss much of what's on display in the museum as "pseudo-science" and describe many of the graphic depictions of paleontology and evolution as merely "artwork." Standing before a display on "Life in the Cenozoic Seas," Jack told the group, "This is a great museum if they would take out the propaganda, if they take out the pseudo-science. It's appalling because students go away thinking that cows turned into whales."

They deride the notion that anything so complex as the human eye could be the result of random mutations, or that the scales of a fish could over millions of years become teeth.

"This is a fairy tale, " Jack declared to the children. "How do they know your teeth evolved from scales? Everybody, try that with me, how do you know?

"How-do-you-know?" the kids repeated in unison.

At another exhibit, Carter pointed to a fossil of a giant fish found in Kansas and said, "Who likes to fish? Who would believe you could catch a fish this big in Kansas ?"

The tours are tolerated but not sponsored by the museum.

"They selectively ignore the vast majority of science in their presentation," said paleontologist and Chief Curator Kirk Johnson.

Johnson, who was raised in a creationist household and taught to believe that the world was only 6,000 years old, said that personal observation and a long education have taught him that evolution is the only way that biology makes sense.

"All of science understands that evolution is a central tenet of biology," Johnson said. "That's how biology makes sense. That's how we make better medicines. That's how we understand food crops.

"If you want to map out life through time, the fossil record is really great for doing that," he continued. "There's a really nice record of what happened on this planet from the first real life forms we know of about 3.4 billion years ago until today."

Out on the museum floor, Jack and Carter stopped the group in front of a window display that contains samples of sandstone that have ripples created by water and fossils of ancient life. Bill Jack asked his group, "How do they date the fossil? By the layer in which they find it. They date the layer by the fossil and the fossil by the layer," he said. "That's circular reasoning."

In the next moment he stepped past and turned his back to a display on radiometric dating, the method by which scientists determine the age of rocks through the rate of decay of their natural radioactivity.

When later asked why he skipped the display, Jack said simply, "We can't cover everything."

Inside the museum's expansive bone and fossil storage room, Johnson said, "They have no clue about how accurate it is … Now it's plus or minus a tenth of a percent."

Preaching to the Choir
Jack and Carter are usually preaching to an agreeable audience. Many of their customers also are creationists, some looking for ways to further instruct their children or bolster their own beliefs.

Stacia Martin, who brought her 14-year-old son Shawn, said she had learned how to defend her faith in Jesus Christ.

"I learned that when you look at exhibits, don't take them at face value just because they're exciting looking or because they're interesting," she said.

Her son Shawn said he thinks the world is 10,000 years old, "Because the Bible says that."

According to Johnson there are benefits to the BC Tours, even if children are given a message diametrically opposed to what the museum presents.

"Regardless of what the tour guide is saying, some of those kids are going to start thinking for themselves," Johnson said.

Jack and Carter said that's exactly what they are teaching: that people should think for themselves, but think within a framework of Creationist belief. They say that life makes sense if you believe that God created all life, and man in his own image.

Otherwise, Jack said, "It is naturalism. All there really is, is nature, and everything comes from nature. And yes, that is antithetical to a supernaturalist world view, if you will, that there is a God who created, put order into the universe."

Jack and Carter are now training other people around the country to hold similar tours at their local museums, and they are also putting together tour materials for Christian teachers.

"I've chosen to believe the God of the Bible," said Jack. "Now the evolutionist has chosen not to believe the God of the Bible. So we've chosen to believe they're both matters of faith."

 

[rekomstop]

lol thats wild

 

[ThaG]

that's wilder:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=744614

Weston - Even as her 11-year-old daughter lay dying on a mattress on the floor of the family dining room on Easter Sunday, Leilani Neumann never wavered in her belief in the power of prayer.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her," Neumann said, according to a police report. "My husband, Dale, was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor, and I said the Lord's going to heal her and we continued to pray."

Prayer didn't save Madeline Kara Neumann, who died of untreated diabetes March 23.

And now, the law is poised to come down hard on the girl's parents, Leilani and Dale Neumann, who were both charged with second-degree reckless homicide Monday by Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad.

If convicted, the parents face maximum sentences of 25 years in prison and a $100,000 fine.

The parents are scheduled to make their first court appearance Wednesday in Marathon County Circuit Court.

The Neumanns, of Weston, could not be reached for comment. Their attorney, Gene Linehan, also declined comment, according to a receptionist at his Wausau office.

Prosecutors said they looked at the "progression of the illness" as they weighed charges in the case.

"By that Saturday (the day before the girl's death) you had an 11-year-old child who wasn't eating, so she wasn't getting any nourishment, she wasn't taking in any fluids, she wasn't walking, she was struggling to get to the bathroom," Falstad said. "She really was very vulnerable and helpless. And it seemed apparent that everybody knew that. As her illness progressed to the next morning being comatose . . . it just is very, very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical prevention (attention).

"She had a disease that was treatable and her death could have been prevented," Falstad said.

The Neumanns, who own a coffee shop in Weston, have three other children who are living with relatives in the area under an agreement with authorities.
'People of faith'

The Neumanns have said they don't believe in any organized religion or faith but believe that healing comes through prayer.

During an interview with Everest Metro Police, Dale Neumann said he and his family are "people of faith." According to one family member interviewed by police, the Neumanns are Pentecostal and were starting a small ministry at their coffee shop.

According to the police report, made available with the charging documents, Dale Neumann said "throughout the interview that he and his family do not need any traditional medical intervention nor do they 'believe' in it."

The document also states: "Neumann said his family never gets sick and if they would, prayer and God would heal them."

The Neumanns both said they noticed a change in Kara's health around two weeks before her death.

"(Dale) Neumann said that he really didn't think she was ill but rather said that he thought her symptoms were due to Madeline's reaching puberty," the document said. The family called their daughter Kara, although authorities also refer to her as Madeline in documents.

Dale Neumann said on the Friday before his daughter died he noticed she was "a little more tired," but that she ate a McDonald's meal without any problems. By Saturday he noted the girl "seemed to act like she had a fever" while her breathing seemed a little labored.

Meanwhile, Leilani Neumann told police that by Saturday, "Kara was laying on the couch. Her legs looked skinny and blue. I didn't realize how skinny she was. We took her to my bed where I got her warm. I thought it was a spiritual attack. We stayed by her side nonstop and we prayed.

"I asked Kara if she loved Jesus and she shook her head yes."

Later Saturday, "Kara got up to go to the bathroom and fell off the toilet," Leilani Neumann told police.

Dale Neumann told police he thought his daughter was getting better on Sunday but that at one point he tried to sit her up but she was unable to remain up.

The investigator said he used the term "unconscious" to describe the girl's condition, according to the report, while Dale Neumann "preferred to say that she was 'in sleep mode.' "

Dale Neumann said Kara couldn't communicate and wasn't taking any water.

By noon, the family contacted another couple, Randall and Althea Wormgoor.

The Wormgoors had followed the Neumanns from California to Wisconsin, a relationship apparently stoked by religious as well as potential business ties. There was talk of opening a second coffee shop in the area that the Wormgoors would operate, the police report says.

The Wormgoors arrived at the home 30 minutes before Kara stopped breathing, Dale Neumann said.

Randall Wormgoor encouraged Dale Neumann to call for medical help but the father "said he remained confident and steadfast in his belief that prayer would heal Madeline," according to an interview Dale Neumann gave to police.

Dale Neumann said he heard a "commotion" coming from the room where his daughter was lying down and that he began CPR efforts. One of the Wormgoors called 911.

Dale Neumann told investigators that "given the same set of circumstances with another child, he would not waiver in his faith and confidence in the healing power of prayer," according to the interview statement.

Police also said an e-mail Dale Neumann sent at 4:58 p.m. on March 22, the day before Kara's death, showed that the parents were aware their daughter was very ill.

The subject line of the email was: "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!" The e-mail was send to AmericasLastDays, an online ministry run by David Eells.
Case could set precedent

Falstad, the district attorney, said the case is likely to be precedent-setting in Wisconsin.

"There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the availability of a 'religious defense' in this case," Falstad said in a prepared statement to announce the charges. "In our nation, we have a constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion. We also give parents leeway in matters of child rearing. However, neither is absolute. In this case, it was necessary to weigh freedom of religion and parenting rights against the state's interests in protecting children."

Wisconsin state law appears to allow an exemption from child abuse charges for parents who engage in treatment by spiritual means through prayer. But the exemption applies only if the use of prayer alone is the basis for charges.

Prosecutors say that exemption does not extend to homicide cases.

Shawn F. Peters, a University of Wisconsin-Madison teacher and author of "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law," said the exemption for prayer could still impact the case.

"I think the prosecutor did the best she could with the law she has," he said.

 

[rekomstop]

LOL @ the girl eating McDonalds under their supervision, but they said that they do not believe in modern medicine...lol
shit don't seem right...

 

[Formaldehyde Rx]

HA HA.............That 2nd story..............Her parents loved jesus more than her..........poor kid, another victim of faith. Just like the kids on those tours or those little girls who got fucked by their dads friends down in texas. All victimized by their faith in people who brought them into this world but didn't care about them as much as an in tangible concept.

 

[XxtraMannish]

LOL "there was no such thing as death until adam n eve ate the apples, therefore T Rex was a vegetarian. because everybody knows plants are never alive, and therefore can't die!" LMAO what the fuck?

 

[Mi$ta-Murda187]

very interesting

 

[ConstantElevation]

Those parents were morons.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

LOL @ When later asked why he skipped the display, Jack said simply, "We can't cover everything."

Talk about completely and utterly OWNING yourself.

 

[Dark Shadow]

LOL "there was no such thing as death until adam n eve ate the apples, therefore T Rex was a vegetarian. because everybody knows plants are never alive, and therefore can't die!" LMAO what the fuck?

yea really i like to know if this guy think they were around the same time period lol man hes a fucking stupid

 

[nhojsmith]

what proof is there that t rex was a carnivore, can any of you show me? it used to be "common knowledge" that t rex was a predator...

I mean none of you would be basing your "knowledge" on some long held belief that was passed down to you as a child and held onto with no further investigation...would you?

 

[BASEDVATO]

what proof is there that t rex was a carnivore, can any of you show me? it used to be "common knowledge" that t rex was a predator...

I mean none of you would be basing your "knowledge" on some long held belief that was passed down to you as a child and held onto with no further investigation...would you?

look at a t-rex teeth? They sharp to rip flesh ect. Are crocodiles teeth sharp for a reason?

evolution is similar in today carnivores, verse vegetarians who tend to have flatter teeth for grinding on veggies

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

what proof is there that t rex was a carnivore, can any of you show me? it used to be "common knowledge" that t rex was a predator...

I mean none of you would be basing your "knowledge" on some long held belief that was passed down to you as a child and held onto with no further investigation...would you?

Teeth would be a good indication if we follow the evolution scale.

Either way, saying they werent flesh eaters becuase DEATH didnt exist yet is BEYOND absurd.

 

[XxtraMannish]

what proof is there that t rex was a carnivore, can any of you show me? it used to be "common knowledge" that t rex was a predator...

I mean none of you would be basing your "knowledge" on some long held belief that was passed down to you as a child and held onto with no further investigation...would you?

We don't have any way of actually KNOWING for certain what they ate. Further, we have no way of KNOWING for certain that there was ever in fact such a thing as a dinosaur. We have evidence to support generally accepted ideas, but we will never actually KNOW. Anyway, my point is that saying T Rex was a vegetarian because death didn't exist is not only ridiculous but extremely flawed reasoning as well. Doesn't the plant have to die at some point if it is being eaten?

 

[nhojsmith]

Dont get me wrong i agree their position is beyond ridiculous. sometimes i just worry our side tends to rely on rhetoric when thats what we are criticizing their position for doing. ive personally never seen a t rex tooth, but ive seen the "fact" that t rex was a predator which is now contested and some say it was a scavenger because of its little gimp arms. i also never knew there was no such thing as a brontosaurus until a few hours ago. in part i was pointing out my own ignorance and my reliance on word of mouth and childhood learning/brainwashing which is essentially what makes religion possible.

 

[XxtraMannish]

^^^Well, there WAS a brontosaurus, it just turned out that there was already a name for the species before they named it a brontosaurus.

 

[nhojsmith]

^^^ well actually there WASNT. the first time dude misidentified an incomplete skeleton as a new and different species, and the second time he pieced together the body of one type of dinosaur with the head and feet of a different type of dinosaur. there is no jackalope and there is no brontosaurus. i looked into it, the thought of being misinformed about little foot crushed me.

 

[NovaFire]

@ the parents...what a bunch of idiots.
god helps those who help themselves.

I remember a story where there was a man on a roof, because there was a flood in his town. This guy had been praying to god to help him, when all of a sudden a boat passed by and offered him a lift. The man refused and said that god would help him, so the boat kept on his way. as the water kept getting higher and higher and the man kept praying, then another boat passed by. They offered the man a ride but he refused yet again. when the flood finally got high enough the man drowned. when he asked god why he had died, god replied, "i sent you one boat and you refused, then i heard your prayer a second time and sent you another life line, and you refused yet again. what did you expect?

 

[XxtraMannish]

^^^ well actually there WASNT. the first time dude misidentified an incomplete skeleton as a new and different species, and the second time he pieced together the body of one type of dinosaur with the head and feet of a different type of dinosaur. there is no jackalope and there is no brontosaurus. i looked into it, the thought of being misinformed about little foot crushed me.

LOL oh I must have misread...

 

[2-0-NINE]

SMH