16% of AAmerican High School Teachers Are Young Earth Creationists
- Thread starter ThaG
- Start date
probably some are superficially religious, maybe even a majority, but when we had a presidential candidate, more than 1 forgot the other, huckabee reject evolution publicly, he is doing that to appeal to a core group of voters, or he wouldnt have done it at all. people blowing up abortion clinics isnt superficial, nor is the nra (founded the same year the KKK was labeled a terrorist org), nor are the people picketing funerals saying god hates fags, or people creating creationist museums, or erecting mormom compounds, or the fact that there is a bible in every hotel ive ever been to. religion is alive and well, the war in iraq has fueled extremism on both sides i think.
It does not really matter whether people are superficially religious or not, what matters is whether they are rational or not in their thinking and behavior. Most people in America clearly aren't and this is troubling.
The conflict between religion and science is only part of the bigger conflict between science and rational thinking on one side and superstition on the other, and this is the real conflict that should be addressed; getting rid of religion is an important first step, but it by itself is not sufficient. There are many people in Europe that are not religious today, but they believe in astrology, alternative medicine, and all sorts of other crap, which is just as bad as being religious.
This relates to a discussion I had some time ago with some people who study the relationships between science and society, I was asking a question and I referred to American society as being essentially anti-science, with which everybody disagreed citing how people always say they support science, bla-bla and so-on.
It was really worrying to realize that even many people who actually study the problem fail to appreciate that supporting science when it comes to microwaves, PCs and other good stuff that you use everyday and actually thinking as a scientist are two very different things. The same people who will tell you "I am pro-science" are the people who will be never willing to begin to think rationally on a daily basis, they will in fact oppose everybody who proposes such changes labeling him an "intellectual snob"
And just so you understand how tiny a fraction of the population is actually truly pro-science, you should know that the same is true for the majority of working scientists, who may not only never apply the scientific method outside the lab, but will even rarely do so inside it. Which is because they lack any training in philosophy and methodology of science and they happen to work in science just because they know more about some tiny area of it than the average person on the street does, but they are indistinguishable from that average person in every other aspect.
Winning the war between superstition and science requires not only killing religion, but also changing the way people think, which will be even harder to do, maybe even impossible
The conflict between religion and science is only part of the bigger conflict between science and rational thinking on one side and superstition on the other, and this is the real conflict that should be addressed; getting rid of religion is an important first step, but it by itself is not sufficient. There are many people in Europe that are not religious today, but they believe in astrology, alternative medicine, and all sorts of other crap, which is just as bad as being religious.
This relates to a discussion I had some time ago with some people who study the relationships between science and society, I was asking a question and I referred to American society as being essentially anti-science, with which everybody disagreed citing how people always say they support science, bla-bla and so-on.
It was really worrying to realize that even many people who actually study the problem fail to appreciate that supporting science when it comes to microwaves, PCs and other good stuff that you use everyday and actually thinking as a scientist are two very different things. The same people who will tell you "I am pro-science" are the people who will be never willing to begin to think rationally on a daily basis, they will in fact oppose everybody who proposes such changes labeling him an "intellectual snob"
And just so you understand how tiny a fraction of the population is actually truly pro-science, you should know that the same is true for the majority of working scientists, who may not only never apply the scientific method outside the lab, but will even rarely do so inside it. Which is because they lack any training in philosophy and methodology of science and they happen to work in science just because they know more about some tiny area of it than the average person on the street does, but they are indistinguishable from that average person in every other aspect.
Winning the war between superstition and science requires not only killing religion, but also changing the way people think, which will be even harder to do, maybe even impossible
1. Well that would be what I referred to as "superficially religious" in the sense that the people blowing up abortion clinics are by and large the same people who claim to believe in "Thou shalt not kill."
2. I don't see what the NRA has to do with religion. Maybe it does somehow, but I'm far from an expert on them, but I dont think they are a religious organization.
3. The "God hates fags" crowd is also largely Christian and Christians are also supposed to be unjudging (if that's a word, but you get the damn picture lol).
4. I always thought that was more for show than anything else. Because the majority religion is the one that reads the Bible (whether or not these people actually live by it), thats who you want to pander to as a smart businessman.
I think you're right about people not being rational thinkers, and that is what leads to people adhering to religion. Its not religion leading to irrational thought. You have generation after generation children who are not yet capable of analytical, rational thought (thus, irrational people) being indoctrinated into religions as soon as they are able to understand speech.
^^bingo, did we forget MOSES was the head of the NRA?!?!?!
@thag
Well most people arent rational in their behavior period, let alone the US. This is a result of intentional manipulation in my opinion. Here I will give you a quote i think you will like it...
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" -Napoleon
There are forces acting against mans rationality, other men. Look at the other thread about the "meaning of life" where everyone irrationally assumes that we have meaning with no argument, some of them were at least a little intelligent and still this fundamental thing within them is an irrational reaction, in my opinion. We are bombarded from inception with messages and myths and the like. The myths are spread by people who may truley believe them, but they are reinforced by people with ulterior motives (the rich).
If we want to discuss the core problem or the real problem, then it begs me to ask what is the objective that religion is obstructing us from? Are you seeking a world of purely rational thought? It would be better if i knew what your perceived objective is here. I say this because we could argue that science is on the verge of becoming the most powerful religion ever to exist because as you point out, it is filled with superficial beliefs and people just going through motions, but is also assumed by many to be infallible which is a direct contradiction of science itself!!!
@thag
Well most people arent rational in their behavior period, let alone the US. This is a result of intentional manipulation in my opinion. Here I will give you a quote i think you will like it...
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" -Napoleon
There are forces acting against mans rationality, other men. Look at the other thread about the "meaning of life" where everyone irrationally assumes that we have meaning with no argument, some of them were at least a little intelligent and still this fundamental thing within them is an irrational reaction, in my opinion. We are bombarded from inception with messages and myths and the like. The myths are spread by people who may truley believe them, but they are reinforced by people with ulterior motives (the rich).
If we want to discuss the core problem or the real problem, then it begs me to ask what is the objective that religion is obstructing us from? Are you seeking a world of purely rational thought? It would be better if i knew what your perceived objective is here. I say this because we could argue that science is on the verge of becoming the most powerful religion ever to exist because as you point out, it is filled with superficial beliefs and people just going through motions, but is also assumed by many to be infallible which is a direct contradiction of science itself!!!
This is a fallacy and I hope you can see it. The fact that most research is not done by people who adhere to the scientific method does not make the scientific method any less valuable. This is a big problem for science, but it is the result of the much bigger flaws in our society as a whole, where even in highly-reputed universities, science is rarely taught the way it should be and most people graduating from there are not good scientists. And most people working in science never even receive a good education.
I don't think it is justified to blame the rich for reinforcing these patterns; certainly it helps them and the percentage of people thinking rationally among them is higher than the average, but it would be stupid to think that they all think rationally or that their actions are guided by such thinking. The suppression of the poor by the rich has roots going back to way way before there was anything remotely similar to a scientific method or rational thinking, never forget that.
What I envision is a society where each and every person receives a really solid, hardcore education in science, technology, math and philosophy and actually works in these areas after that. And when I say philosophy I do not mean the pseudo-problematics that most philosophers are occupied with, I mean those branches of philosophy that deal with serious issues like the problem of knowledge and how we obtain it, for example. Such a society would be much more stable than ours, however as I have stated many times before this would require some very radical changes to happen, which is so unlikely that this vision is little more than an utopia
I don't think it is justified to blame the rich for reinforcing these patterns; certainly it helps them and the percentage of people thinking rationally among them is higher than the average, but it would be stupid to think that they all think rationally or that their actions are guided by such thinking. The suppression of the poor by the rich has roots going back to way way before there was anything remotely similar to a scientific method or rational thinking, never forget that.
What I envision is a society where each and every person receives a really solid, hardcore education in science, technology, math and philosophy and actually works in these areas after that. And when I say philosophy I do not mean the pseudo-problematics that most philosophers are occupied with, I mean those branches of philosophy that deal with serious issues like the problem of knowledge and how we obtain it, for example. Such a society would be much more stable than ours, however as I have stated many times before this would require some very radical changes to happen, which is so unlikely that this vision is little more than an utopia
