A message for Sic Wid It

[SirPlayboy7]

Concerning the D Sane post about what is a producer that is locked. You had the last post on there and tried to take me to task.

I said...

they were credited as the producer regardless of whether they played "coach" on the track or not....simply because that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game.

You replied...

No, that's not how it's usually done. You obviously have never had paperwork with a major label.

The definition of producer DOES NOT CHANGE depending on the type of music you're doing! This subject creates confusion for two main reasons... First, many producers also play instruments and compose music and are wearing several hats. Second, a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible for.

The definition of a "producer" isn't up for negotiation or debate. The role is well-defined and people ignorant of that doesn't change anything.

#1 - I knew ahead of time that someone would try and check me for my comments...note the part of my post that says "simply because that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game". And no, I aint never had paperwork with a Major - lucky for me I been makin a livin without a major. What I said is 100% TRUE at "our level of the game"...Underground Indie Rap Music. Mutha fukkas in rap have been selling beats and getting credited as producer forever. If you are as knowledgeable as you are projecting then you have to know this.

#2 - I agree with you when you say "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible". That's what I was saying with "that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game". We both are saying that "In the rap game" people dont "really" or "usually" understand what a producer is.

#3 - And I disagree with your statements that "The definition of producer DOES NOT CHANGE depending on the type of music you're doing!" Of course it does...and I think you know that, that's why YOU said, again, "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible". Even tho it's technically incorrect...we both know that in rap a lot of times the "Beatmaker" gets credited as producer.

#4 - You say "The definition of a "producer" isn't up for negotiation or debate". This is a message board, EVERYTHING is up for negotiation and debate. Thats the point isn't it?

#5 - You said "The role is well-defined and people ignorant of that doesn't change anything". I don't know who you are or what you have done or what qualifies you to call others ignorant for their opinions...but I'm far from ignorant homeboy. Again, what I said is 100% TRUE, even if you don't like it or agree with it...In rap, especially Indie rap, the beatmaker often gets credit as producer. It's a "scandal" when Dre gets production credit for a beat that Daz or Scott Storch made because usually "In Rap" the beatmaker is the "producer". I know it's not technically correct but there is a long history of it in rap.

You quoted the ass end of my post, taking it out of context. Both the first half and second half of my post are accurate.

 

[Sick Wid It]

What I said is 100% TRUE at "our level of the game"...Underground Indie Rap Music. Mutha fukkas in rap have been selling beats and getting credited as producer forever. If you are as knowledgeable as you are projecting then you have to know this.

Yes, I'm aware that happens at your level, I never said it didn't. Some people are properly credited but most people arnt.

I agree with you when you say "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible". That's what I was saying with "that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game". We both are saying that "In the rap game" people dont "really" or "usually" understand what a producer is.

Ok.

And I disagree with your statements that "The definition of producer DOES NOT CHANGE depending on the type of music you're doing!" Of course it does...and I think you know that, that's why YOU said, again, "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible". Even tho it's technically incorrect...we both know that in rap a lot of times the "Beatmaker" gets credited as producer.

Nothing I have said is incorrect technically or otherwise. The bottom line is simple... "The definition of producer DOES NOT CHANGE depending on the type of music you're doing!" Yes, in rap, a lot of the time the beat maker is credited as producer. What you're not getting is that most of the time it's an improper credit! And why/how could that happen? Because, "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible".

Ignorance doesn't give you a pass to change the meaning of things! The role of a producer is the same whether you're talking about county, classical, rap, reggae, r&b, jazz, funk, blues, bluegrass, folk, or any other type of music. The only people who can't understand that are the ones who don't understand what a producer is responsible for.

You say "The definition of a "producer" isn't up for negotiation or debate". This is a message board, EVERYTHING is up for negotiation and debate. Thats the point isn't it?

Debating opinions, sure. But not to debate things like the definition of words. You want to debate the role of a producer but would you debate the role of a recording artist? Would you debate the role of a manager?

Sorry man, certains things just arn't debatable whether you think they are or not. The fact that so many people have so many different opinions on this just proves my point... That most people don't know or understand what a producer really does.

You said "The role is well-defined and people ignorant of that doesn't change anything". I don't know who you are or what you have done or what qualifies you to call others ignorant for their opinions...but I'm far from ignorant homeboy.

If somebody is unaware of something, they are ignorant of it. Nobody needs any special qualifications to point that out.

Again, what I said is 100% TRUE, even if you don't like it or agree with it...In rap, especially Indie rap, the beatmaker often gets credit as producer.

And like I said, "What you're not getting is that most of the time it's an improper credit! And why/how could that happen? Because, "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible".

Just because it happens doesn't make it right or legitimate. It just means there's a lot of people with a limited understanding & knowledge of the business they're trying to be in.

It's a "scandal" when Dre gets production credit for a beat that Daz or Scott Storch made because usually "In Rap" the beatmaker is the "producer". I know it's not technically correct but there is a long history of it in rap.

That's about the worst example you could use. Dre has received acclaim from every top name in the business as being one of the best "producers" in the business period. Why do you think that is? If it's such a "scandal" he is credited as producer, why do so many people, like Scott Storch continue to work with him? Scott Storch is top-shelf and has had several #1 hits that didn't have anything to do with Dre so why would he continue to work with Dre if he was knowingly being ripped off somehow, or not receiving proper credit for his work? You can't build the type of career Dre has off being a con-artist. The only "scandal" is that people, out of their lack of knowledge & understanding, falsely accuse him of things he's not guilty of. And because of that those people can't fully respect & appreciate his work.

You claim to know what a "producer" really is but then you make comments like this that completely say the opposite.

You quoted the ass end of my post, taking it out of context. Both the first half and second half of my post are accurate.

I quoted the only part relevant to my reply and I'm sure anyone who read my reply also read your post too.

My opinion is that if you really knew what a producer was responsible for, you wouldn't be contradicting yourself in the same post. I suggest doing some research on this subject and getting a solid grasp on what titles like producer, composer, arranger, engineer, etc. mean. I'm not trying to be derogatory towards you man, I'm just saying a little more knowledge on the subject wouldn't hurt.

 

[SirPlayboy7]

Trust me, I have done my homework

As far as using Dre as the worst example i could use and taking that as me contradicting myself...again, read the next sentence...I said "I know it's not technically correct but there is a long history of it in rap". If you read that sentence and take it into consideration with the previous sentence what I am saying is "When the beatmaker is not credited as producer it's a scandal, even tho technically making the beat does not automatically make you the producer"

I never said Storch got ripped off or Dre is a con artist. I know Dre can take a beat that someone else did and legitimately be labeled as the producer.

Definitions may or may not be open for debate, but someones interpretation of a definition is. There is a big funk with the Oscars going on over the same subject...what qualifies you as a producer and what doesn't. Who's right, who's wrong?

This is what I said in my original post...

but, in rap, the beatmaker is called the producer many times. we have got beats from the original poster D Sane and the last poster before me DJ Numbawun...any track we got from them, they were credited as the producer regardless of whether they played "coach" on the track or not....simply because that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game.

So be it ignorance as you say or custom or for whatever other reason, what I said is TRUE and ACCURATE...at our level of the rap game the beatmaker is often credited as the producer.

 

[Sick Wid It]

"What you're not getting is that most of the time it's an improper credit! And why/how could that happen? Because, "a lot of people (especially in rap) don't really understand what these jobs are and what the people doing them are actually responsible for."

It doesnt matter what 'level of the rap game' you're at, the TRUTH still holds that "Just because it happens doesn't make it right or legitimate. It just means there's a lot of people with a limited understanding & knowledge of the business they're trying to be in."

I know it happens and I'm saying the shit is wrong. You've said yourself that you agree! I guess one of the differences between me and you is that if I know somethings wrong, I say it's wrong and I try to educate people about the truth so they have a better understanding, whereas you just accept it whether it's right or wrong. You proved this when you said "any track we got from them, they were credited as the producer regardless of whether they played "coach" on the track or not....simply because that's how its usually done at our level in the rap game."

Ignorance isn't okay no matter what 'level of the game' you're at, do you agree? Or do you think it's okay as long as you're some struggling independant? If you see cats doing things backwards do you justify because a lot of people are doing it that way, or do you say 'hold up homie, this is how it REALLY works'? If you really do know what the role of a producer is, how come you arn't teaching others so they don't have to stay ignorant about it instead of just chalking it up and going along with something you know is wrong?

 

[DJ Coma]

I can't believe this fool is actually trying to argue this.

 

[HERESY]

Ignorance isn't okay no matter what 'level of the game' you're at, do you agree? Or do you think it's okay as long as you're some struggling independant? If you see cats doing things backwards do you justify because a lot of people are doing it that way, or do you say 'hold up homie, this is how it REALLY works'? If you really do know what the role of a producer is, how come you arn't teaching others so they don't have to stay ignorant about it instead of just chalking it up and going along with something you know is wrong?

I am going to speak from a recent experience that happened to me. During late 2004 to early 2005 I was working with an artist and we were going to release his album. Before I came into the picture the guy was rapping about nothing. I came into the picture, helped cultivate him and his sound. I would tell him to focus on concepts, I would tell him to change the format of some songs (instead of doing 3 verses do two 24's or 16's with 4 bar hooks) and I would have him and the main beatmaker work the songs until they sounded RIGHT. The hard work paid off, he saw progress in his career, song was on the radio every week, he was on several GOOD mixtapes and things were panning out.....until.....it was time to establish the credits.

I told the main beat maker the credits should read PRODUCED BY: (whoever produced and oversaw the song) and MUSIC COMPOSED BY: (whoever made the beat.) He seemed cool with it at first and I gave him the WAR&PEACE credits to show him this is how shit SHOULD be done. In my face he agreed with it, but behind my back he was a viper. I helped the main beatmaker AND the artist in question with so much shit. I told them about ascap and bmi, downloaded the shit for them, hell I was the one who filled out the main beatmakers ascap forms. The main beatmaker got back at me and told me he wanted it HIS way (so he can establish his name.) I say OK do it how you want lets just get the project done. Two days before I was set to bury my sister (she died of cancer) I get a call from the main beatmaker saying they don't want to work with me. I took it hard but not too hard because my mind was focused on my sisters death. A recipt was drawn up, and the artist was billed. The artist could not pay the loot, but I registered the songs under my name anyway (form S.R.) Now the artist and main beatmaker are working on anotehr album. All I have to do is sit back and pray that they succeed and make money because I am sitting on a full album and beats from the beatmaker. If they blow this album is getting dumped to the highest bidder. If they never blow its all gravy because I can sit back and say "without me you are nothing". It is a WIN WIN situation for me, but I would prefer they blow because I can make some money off the shit.

The moral of the story is very simple. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE INVOLVED WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE MAKE SURE YOU ALL HAVE THE SAME VISION AND DEFINITIONS. MAKE SURE YOU ALL HAVE TEH SAME GOALS AND OUTLOOK. MAKE SURE YOU ARE ALL EQUAL OR HAVE AN EQUAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE BUSINESS.